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Marathon Measurement Plan

peteriegelpeteriegelRCMBB Founder
I’VE BEEN WORKING ON THE RAILROAD…..

The weather last weekend was tolerable, with iffy predictions for snow or rain, but I did get a chance to go to Gambier and measure the marathon course. I met with the RD, got some questions answered, and laid out the cal course. There was a great spot for it, right next to the locomotive on the Kokosing Gap Trail, where the course begins its final out-back. It’s shown below:


Calibration course begins at the lamp post by the bike rack and goes straight past the engine.

Friday I measured from the locomotive eastward to the start, and back again. This stretch includes the loop through Gambier, which has one big hill. It was a toughie, especially when I had a couple of off-course moments and had to retrace and ride the hill again. So I got four trips up the hill.

I would have gone again Saturday to finish the job, but the Ohio State – Michigan game was the diversion of choice. Go Bucks.

Sunday was an easy out-back from the locomotive to the east end of the course in Danville, and I was pleased to see that there were a couple hundred meters to spare. I’d been painting splits as I went east, and would have been grieved to have to change them. Enroute I passed through a short tunnel:



I was happy to be done with the riding before the snows came. Once these bike paths get snow-covered, they generally don’t get plowed, and I hate to have half-finished work sitting around.

Couldn’t resist a final tourist shot:



Now for the course map and the paperwork. I can't remember a marathon course that was more fun to measure.
duanerussellduanerussellMeasurer
Pete,

Looks like you had a good measurement! Glad things worked for you.

See, with planning and luck, you can set out your marks on the first ride! Wink

Please send me your map when it is done, along with the race date. You can be the first Ohio course listed on my RaceMeasure.com site!

Way to go Buckeyes! (I partially grew up in Dublin, and ushered OSU games as a Boy Scout.)

I'll send the cert and map when it's done. Probably will be a week or two. Pete
Last edited by peteriegel
jimgerweckjimgerweckMember
Pete, re: your metric/Imperial 2 measurement technique for cal courses. I guess this qualifies for 2 measurements as much as 2 done in the same units would, but I'm always leary about mixing the two units (and I'm sure Bob Baumel is positively apoplectic in reading this, hence his lack of reply - he's probably sitting paralyzed in shock at his comuter).

I work solely in metric untis (since the mile is officially defined that way, it's not hard to figure out, but quite another story going the opposite direction). I've measured a couple times w/ guys who work in Imperial, and I always feel like an American astronaut working w/ a Russian counterpart on the Int'l Space Station - we're not really talking the same language. It's like apples and oranges. It really gets to be a pain when doing a marathon or half marathon, and they're trying to figure out the 385 yards byond 26 miles, while I've got my 42,195m easily calculated.
peteriegelpeteriegelRCMBB Founder
I've found that taking the same reading twice on the same scale is liable to produce a second reading error if the first one is read wrong. I originally thought I would hook two tapes to the nails, and read them one after the other, but found the one I used. It was the first time I'd used the feet/inches scale - I much prefer decimal feet.

I also have to take more care when reading a metric tape. I've found that even people who live in metric-using countries sometimes have a hard time getting the decimal point in the right place.

What I like about using feet is that the whole foot is right in front of my eyes, and I easily see the fractional foot.

But I do use meters in all my race calculations except for mile splits.
jimgerweckjimgerweckMember
I agree - I am very careful when taping metrically to make sure I'm reading the correct decimal place. But once that's done, it's a lot easier working metrically for the actual on-course measurements. Hugh Jones was the guy who convinced me to think of it as putting marks every 1609.344m rather than every mile. Since the majority of courses I measure are metric (and that includes half & full marathons - I absolutely HATE working in miles and yards, or worse, fractions of a mile for those distances) it's way easier. Even 3- and 5-milers are easier for me if thought of as 4828.032m or 8046.72m.
duanerussellduanerussellMeasurer
Maybe I'm dense, but what is the difference between putting marks every mile, then one at 3.10686 miles, and putting marks at multiples of 1609.344m and then one at 5K? Using decimals in each situation. Besides, ulitimately it comes out as (18425 for me) clicks on a Jones, so why does it matter if you get there with metric math or Imperial math?

I guess I don't see why either one is "better" or eaaier than the other. TomAtoe, tomaahto.
jimgerweckjimgerweckMember
Unless you've got a decimal foot tape, it's very hard to locate 3.10686 miles, whereas 1609.344 is easily locatable on a metric tape.

But the real reason should be that the mile is defined by an exact metric distance, but the converse is not true - Imperial equivalents are just approximations - maybe sufficiently accurate for our purposes, but why introduce another possible source of error that's not needed? For instance, if I convert 5km I get 3.106856 miles. But then if I convert that figure back, I get 5.0000001 km, indicating there's some imprecision creeping in here.
Last edited by jimgerweck
duanerussellduanerussellMeasurer
Jim,

You touched on my point - why worry about a 7th-decimal point lack of precision when we make every course longer by a 3rd-decimal point lack of precision?

And, we use Jones counts, not tape measures when we do our courses.

When doing a calibration course, we strive to be absolutely accurate. That can be done with Imperial or metric. If the operator can't read a tape accurately, it that the fault of the methodology? No, it is the fault of the user. To make it crystal clear, if I shoot 95 for a round of golf while using Tiger's clubs, does that mean he needs new clubs, or just that I am incompetent in the use of those clubs? It is the user, not the tool, that determines accuracy in our field.

Have a great Thanksgiving, all.
peteriegelpeteriegelRCMBB Founder
MILEPOST MILES VS CALIBRATED BIKE

I’m all done with measuring the Earth Day Marathon. While laying out the splits there was nothing on the Kokosing Gap Trail to use as split landmarks, so I used the existing permanent trail mileposts as reference points. Enroute I got measurement data between most of the posts. My calibration change was only 2.5 counts/km on the first day and 1.3 on the second day.

I don’t know what method was used to lay out the posts, but it looks like they got them right.

Below you will see how it came out. Milepost 8 seems off, but it was located at the edge of a cross-road. Perhaps they didn’t want to put the post in the road, so they put it as close as they could get it.

"Error" calculation assumes that the mileposts are in exactly the right place.

ericmillerericmillerMember
It was interesting to read through this topic, because I was just contacted by a RD who wants a marathon measured that's a full 3 hours away from me. It's a small charity-driven race, so I doubt the RD will follow-through due to the cost.

I strugged with the pricing a bit because of the distance from me. I'm also torn because I feel compelled to help, but I don't really want to travel that far. In the end I offered to do it for about half of what could be considered a standard fee, but it's still a significant chunk of money for a small race in a small town.

As I put together a proposal, I couldn't help thinking that there's no way the RD would appreciate the amount of work involved in the measurement, and she would likely dismiss my offer as exorbitant.
duanerussellduanerussellMeasurer
E.,

I think you sell yourself short when you feel compelled to lower your price due to the race's circumstances, for a number of reasons.

First, the race may be small the first year or two, but then grow to a large, regional, then national, event. They may end up making much more for their charity in the coming years than they think , if they produce and market their race well. There are expenses involved in setting up a quality event.

Second, yes, there is alot of work involved, and why should you be the person to donate your time (or donate half of your fee), just because you have something they need? Sponsors don't get involved with an event if there is no compelling reason, be it publicity, a connection with the cause, or they need the tax benefits. If you are not in a position to absorb the "donation", don't make the donation in the form of a reduced fee.

Third, if they can't afford the certification, and you don't want to donate the certification, they can get pretty darn close to the correct distance this year, using MapMyRun.com. Then, if the event grows, they can have it certified next year. Just because I want a BMW, does not mean that a dealer must sell me one at a price I can afford. I can buy a cheaper car, and it will do until I can afford what I want.

Plus, certifications can pay for themselves in the form of additional entrants. If they have a $75 entry fee, it will only take 24 extra runners to pay for the certification (disregarding the cost of t-shirts, etc.). For that reason, I don't think a full-fee certification is out of line. You could discount the Half fee, if it follows the same course, and you can measure and mark it at the same time as the full marathon measurement ride.

If you can't go back and get your full fee, or, if she still feels that your discounted fee is too much (after explaining the benefits of certification AND THEN MARKETING the certification of her race), you could help her with her course on MapMyRun.com this year, then she can get it certified next year. She will appreciate your help in saving money the initial year, then will likely want you to certify it after she sees if she has enough participation to continue the event.

Besides, the fee is good for 10 years, so on a per-year basis, it is a small price to pay for accuracy in her course.

Just my thoughts.
genenewmangenenewmanRRTC Chairman
I don't know your charge, but Duane is right on! I feel that a fair price should not be lowered. The question is what is fair?

Your travel time is important as well as the type of course you are measuring. If it's an out and back then you could charge less. I generally charge about $50 per mile plus $100 for the paper work. In your case I would build in some charge for travel. Then another thing to consider is: do you have to design the course? If that's the case then that would involve some extra charge.

They could always do it themselves by following the guidelines, but if they choose to ask for an expert then present your charges and don't worry about their answer.
jimgerweckjimgerweckMember
The first question any potential marathon entrant is going to ask is, "Can I qualify for Boston there?" And the answer is definitely "No" if it's not certified. So the race will quickly find that certification is the most cost-effective expense it's going to have, in terms of attracting entrants - much more than pretty T-shirts, on-course hula dancers, or a post-race feed and entertainment to rival the Roman circus maximus.
ericmillerericmillerMember
Great comments...thanks everyone. I wish I would have posted here before I sent the proposal. From here on out, I'll definitely stick to a more standard pricing. I didn't offer to do it for free by any means ($30 for each of first 10KMs, $10 for addtional kms, IRS mileage rate, and hotel expense; it came out to about $800), but I think that still falls $400-$500 short of a typical starting price.

It's been a few days and I haven't heard back from the RD, so it's probably moot at this point. But I'll take your advice, Duane, and send her the link to mapmyrun.
pastmemberpastmemberMember
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Gerweck:
Unless you've got a decimal foot tape, it's very hard to locate 3.10686 miles, whereas 1609.344 is easily locatable on a metric tape.

But the real reason should be that the mile is defined by an exact metric distance, but the converse is not true - Imperial equivalents are just approximations - maybe sufficiently accurate for our purposes, but why introduce another possible source of error that's not needed? For instance, if I convert 5km I get 3.106856 miles. But then if I convert that figure back, I get 5.0000001 km, indicating there's some imprecision creeping in here.


Jim, I can see this both ways, but I generally agree with Duane. Jones counts cannot feel the difference between metric and Imperial.

The reason for the miniscule conversion difference you find is of course rounding. Using the free download CONVERT.EXE, I find that 5 kilometers is 3.106856 - exactly. Reversing this conversion yields 5K - exactly.

The Hubble telescope would not have needed its first servicing mission had NASA mirror engineers used this simple tool.
pastmemberpastmemberMember
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Russell:
E.,

I think you sell yourself short when you feel compelled to lower your price due to the race's circumstances, for a number of reasons.

First, the race may be small the first year or two, but then grow to a large, regional, then national, event. They may end up making much more for their charity in the coming years than they think , if they produce and market their race well. There are expenses involved in setting up a quality event.

Second, yes, there is alot of work involved, and why should you be the person to donate your time (or donate half of your fee), just because you have something they need? Sponsors don't get involved with an event if there is no compelling reason, be it publicity, a connection with the cause, or they need the tax benefits. If you are not in a position to absorb the "donation", don't make the donation in the form of a reduced fee.

Third, if they can't afford the certification, and you don't want to donate the certification, they can get pretty darn close to the correct distance this year, using MapMyRun.com. Then, if the event grows, they can have it certified next year. Just because I want a BMW, does not mean that a dealer must sell me one at a price I can afford. I can buy a cheaper car, and it will do until I can afford what I want.

Plus, certifications can pay for themselves in the form of additional entrants. If they have a $75 entry fee, it will only take 24 extra runners to pay for the certification (disregarding the cost of t-shirts, etc.). For that reason, I don't think a full-fee certification is out of line. You could discount the Half fee, if it follows the same course, and you can measure and mark it at the same time as the full marathon measurement ride.

If you can't go back and get your full fee, or, if she still feels that your discounted fee is too much (after explaining the benefits of certification AND THEN MARKETING the certification of her race), you could help her with her course on MapMyRun.com this year, then she can get it certified next year. She will appreciate your help in saving money the initial year, then will likely want you to certify it after she sees if she has enough participation to continue the event.

Besides, the fee is good for 10 years, so on a per-year basis, it is a small price to pay for accuracy in her course.

Just my thoughts.


Well said, Duane. I have had exactly this same conversation with measurers and RDs. I have lost count of the number of recreational runners who have told me they pass up registering for any race that does not certify its course.
jimgerweckjimgerweckMember
I have measured some courses for events that couldn't afford to pay for certification. What I've done is ride the course, put down start, finish and split marks, and leave it at that.
If they can afford to have the course certified in subsequent years, I fill out the forms and make the map (these are the parts I feel I "earn my keep" on - at least I'm getting some exercise from the measurement ride) and get an official certification.
This way the runners have an accurate course from year one. I feel that's the most important thing anyway.
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