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Bob Thurston brought up another topic on his thread about GPS, so I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Bob Thurston wrote:

"Thanks folks, I really appreciate getting that advice about gps devices. I just bit the bullet and ordered a gpsmap csx, like Mark's. I'm hoping that the elevation works better than what Mark said but I don't have any great expectations about this.
I really enjoyed seeing folks at the rrtc meeting, and I found Duane's presentation inspiring. I'm hoping to delve into some of that computer mapping during these quieter winter months. In a roundabout way this prompts another question-- since my wife pretty much monopolizes our desktop computer these days I will have to get a computer. The question is, are these mapping and drawing programs easier on PC's or on macs? And: how much memory should I be sure to have?"
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Bob,

In my experience, Google Earth and all of the online mapping tools work equally well on the PC and the Mac.

For drawing maps, Laurent Lacroix steered me towards EasyDraw for the Mac. It is pretty intuitive and you can buy a fully functional trial license for $20 that lasts a year I think. It gives you a good opportunity to try it out for very little money. The permanent license is $60 or $70.
http://www.eazydraw.com/
Google Earth also has a (Tools > Ruler) measuring tool which makes it easy to determine the straight-line distance between points, e.g., between start and finish on a course.

I also use it to determine the elevations for points along a course. The elevation shows up in meters at the bottom of the screen as you move the mouse pointer along the course.

For drawing maps, I use a Mac with Freehand. It more functional and easier to use, but the down side is the $399 license fee.
I have an older version of the same GPS. I purchased the Topo Canada maps and am very pleased with them. As well as the Topo data they have excellent road data and routing capability. One thing I like when measuring is to be able to see upcoming curves and corners even if they are hidden from my line of sight. I assume that the US Topo maps are similar.
Bob,
I also bought my 60cxs a few years ago and purchased the City Navigator maps. Very detailed road information. The maps also include information about businesses. I have not updated the maps since I first bought them 4 or 5 years ago (since it is not free). While driving we will occasionally run into a disagreement between the maps and the roads, but this has never happened when measuring a course. I think most road/name changes are on highways and main roads, not on local roads where most races are held.

On an unrelated note, one of our pet peeves with the navigation part of the Garmin software is that when you are traveling and ask it to show restaurants for example, it shows the ones behind, as well as in front of you. Does it really think we care about the restaurants behind us? We can't find any way to change this. Does this happen with other GPS devices people have?
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Thanks for the quick replies! In the meantime I went ahead and ordered the City Navigator ("lower 49 states") and also the topo map for southeast US. I guess it's extravagant but it sounded like that would be the best way to have good information about streets and also about off-road areas. I'll have to be sure to dig up some woodsy courses to measure to justify this, but anyway I should be in a position to compare the 2 kinds of map.
Mark, what if it's a really good restaurant, would you go back for that? They could use that in promotions, if so ("gps users turn around to get here . . .")
If you're cheap as I am, you might want to get the free software from www.openoffice.org that includes OpenOffice Draw that can be used to draw maps.

Here are some of its features:

You can establish numerous "layers" such as a base map of an area used for numerous courses and other layers for the information specific to the different courses.

You can use a JPEG image, or a screenshot, as a base layer that you can draw on top of. You can incorporate the image in your map, or make it invisible in your final product.

You can draw near-unlimited detail by using View/Zoom to effectively work at great magnifications.

You can export your final product as an easily shareable PDF or JPEG file.

I'm convinced a more graphically talented person could do a much better job, but you can look a one of the maps I made with OpenOffice Draw at http://www.usatf.org/events/co...?courseID=CT07002JHP.

The package of software that includes the drawing program also includes a spreadsheet program that seems to do everything that Excel does, including math with time.

If you have questions, you can contact me at davidreik@comcast.net.
In reference to Mark Neal's question above, I draw each side of the road separately. Maybe there's a way to draw both sides of the road at the same time, but I've not found it. You might be able to draw one thick dark line for the whole road, and then use a light line within the dark line for the measured route. I think Jim Gerweck experimented with that approach, using different software.
I use Adobe Illustrator. The "layers" feature allows creating a layer of "black roads" traced from the Google map on the layer below. These "black roads" can be copied to a layer above and made white and thinner. This produces roads with two edges and all intersections.

Correl Draw has a feature that produces a two-edged road on a single layer.

Both these are fairly expensive software packages used by graphic artists. However, older versions can be found on eBay much cheaper.

The disadvantage I've found with these software is that with all the available features, maps can become pretty complicated and therefore take longer to produce. This, of course is not a software problem.
I also use Illustrator and the key feature for me is it's ability to apply a style to a layer. I created a "road" style with a wide black line under a slightly narrower white line. After creating my road network I apply the style to the layer and like manic all the intersections are joined together without overlapping lines.
Those are great tips. This is a very valuable discussion. Only through this forum and emailing you folks for tips at looking at your maps and sharing files did I figure this stuff out. Some of it better than others. I am just starting to feel like I can make a map pretty quickly now after years. The measurement video is great but I think a map video would save all you regional certifiers a ton of headaches. How about a Youtube? You guys don't get any bad maps to certify do you Wink.
Guido,

My presentation was mostly showing the different layers I add to Illustrator, in the order I do it. There wasn't a lot of time, so it was a very brief presentation. And, without Illustrator, you couldn't open the main feature of the presentation.

I like Illustrator for many reasons. I wish I had a true "presentation", but without someone having Illustrator, a presentation may not be worth much. It is a hands-on learning experience.
I have recently learned that Adobe is no longer supporting FreeHand, which it got when purchasing Macromedia several years ago to gain possession of Flash. Therefore it will not run on later versions of the Mac OS.
I suppose I will have to figure out how to make my maps using Illustrator now. One thing I like about Freehand was its "Clone" command - I could draw a black line, clone it, change to a thinner white line, and get a road. Clone once more and change to a dotted line, and voila, the running route.
My problem is with my older existing maps. I'm afraid I'm going to have to keep my older iMac just to access them.
Ah, the price of progress.
I'm still using power point from microsoft office to do my maps. I work with my 2003 version, but will be testing the 2010 version this summer. It convert to all later power point versions, and I can do all kinds of pasting into the presentation. I bring a google map picture in and draw my roads by copying. I then delete the google map. I don't have a cool feature for making two sided roads at one time, but copy and paste works great. City blocks are easy with inserting rectangles and leaving space between. I like that I can draw in a larger area than the sheet below, and then resize it. It also will zoom in and out, great for drawing the detail, and then seeing the whole sheet after for the look of the composition. If the map is readable at 75% on the computer screen, it will be extremely readable for most eyes on the paper. I can save this to many different formats. I also insert new slides to draw secondary maps for my race director.

I would love to see some hands-on work with some of the other softwares out there. I'm always looking for ways to make things faster and better.
Toni,

One important feature that is not available in Powerpoint (even the 2010 version) that many other drawing programs have is layers.

With this feature you can put the background map on a layer by itself and then make that layer visible but locked. This will make the background map unselectable, so it makes it easier to work. When you're done you can make the background map invisible rather than delete it, and it will still be there if you need it. Once you get accustomed to working with layers you'll see how much easier it makes many things.

One drawing program with layers that is free is OpenOffice. At my website below there is a link to download OpenOffice, map examples, and tutorials.
http://www.dukerdog.com/USATF/Measurer_Tools/
You are right, Mark. Layers make the difference in creating digital maps. Yet, as Guido says, Corel Draw has a handy feature (not easy to find how to do in the help index)wherein you draw your roads in wide black lines, combine them, copy them in place, then change the copied roads - which are now "on top" of the original roads - to white lines, slightly narrower. Voila - all roads look good whether straight or curved. A couple of examples:Capitol Hill Classic 10K Course Map Capitol Hill Classic 3K Certification Course Map. This is essentially the same technique that Paul uses in Illustrator.

Corel Draw and Illustrator (highly comparable programs) do have a steep learning curve for beginners. Some day, if there is sufficient interest nationwide, I recommend RRTC look into getting a company license for either of these programs or both. We would provide individual seats to measurers for a reasonable fee. We could conduct on line classes which cover both the Corel/Illustrator basics and a customized course on map drawing. Certainly Duane, Paul, Guido and others in RRTC could contribute to the curriculum.
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Lyman, FreeHand has the same capability - it has a "Clone" feature which I haven't seen on Illustrator (not familiar w/ Corel). Trace a scan or satellite photo of a road in 12 point black line. Clone, change to 10 point white. Clone again, change to dotted red w/ arrowheads. In about 15 seconds you've created your roads and the running route w/ about half a dozen keystrokes.
Jim - Illustrator has the Clone capability. Simply copy the "black road" line, paste-in-place (keystroke) on a new layer, and you then reduce the line weight, changed to white. Same simple steps you indicate. Oh, yes - "simple steps" if one knows the program well, as with all drawing applications.

All can do the same process, and as Mark says, Open Office is free.
DO NOT upgrade your Mac to OS-X Mountain Lion if you're using Freehand for your maps. With the latest version of the OS-X, Apple has abandoned support for Power PC applications, which leaves Freehand un-supported. I suspect that there may be others too that will not work with this release. Check before you invest your time and money.

I installed Mountain Lion this morning, and had to erase my hard disk and restore my latest backup (time machine) to be able to use Freehand. I'm a bit disappointed in Apple. I'm sure it Steve Jobs were still alive...
Ron, don't blame Apple completely - Adobe is partly responsible. When they bought Macromedia they phased out support for FreeHand, to migrate users over to Illustrator. I have only used Illustrator for maps a few times so I don't know if it's as good as FreeHand, but I'm expecting that I'll have to keep my old Power PC Mac just for FreeHand use, just as I have a first-generation iMac to run Raceberry JaM race scoring software on OS 9. Confused
Bob,
Freehand is a vector drawing program. From what I can see on the web, Gimp manipulates jpg types of graphics and doesn't offer the tools needed to produce maps from scratch.

Jim,
This is a bit off-topic, but the only reason I considered updating to Mountain Lion was to enable Apple TV. Then after purchasing the upgrade, I learned that it wouldn't work for older MacBook Pros (2011 and earlier). But, I bought the update so I installed anyway. Shame on me for trusting Apple and not thoroughly investigating. Shame on Apple for advertising this release with AirPlay as a feature and not highlighting the caveats.

I still love Apple products, but not as intensely.

Ron
Jim,
Have you explored any new (supported) vector drawing programs for your Mac in preparation for when Freehand becomes un-usable? You know the day is coming.

I'm thinking that I'll start practicing with OpenOffice to acquire some skill (speed) with using their drawing tools. I've looked at them and they certainly aren't as elegant as Freehand, but then, it's free.

Ron
I've been on vacation with the family the past few days without (intentionally) a connected device.

I started looking into OpenOffice as an easy-to-use and free app that people could use to draw maps electronically for the first time. There's no doubt there are other drawing programs that have nicer drawing features, but three features of OpenOffice that are tough to beat include:
1) Price (free)
2) Learning curve (with the exception of the curve tool)
3) Stability (open source code which no one owns but which is supported by many)

I have map templates and tutorials at
http://www.dukerdog.com/USATF/Measurer_Tools/

Keep in mind that the intended audience for the above tutorials is an electronic map beginner.
I appreciate the work you have done introducing the drawing program of Open Office, Mark. This seems like a good way to start for anyone who is interested in Drawing maps. While it lacks what Jim calls a "multi-point line tool", it draws lines just fine, if less rounded than non-free programs. It is possible if maybe slightly tedious to round out the curves so they are as good as anything in Freehand, Illustrator, or Corel Draw. However, even this might become easy if you were using it regularly.

I started with Corel Draw because I got a free copy of an ancient version, plus a few pointers on getting started from Phil Quinn. I say with no purpose to brag or complain that the learning curve is steep for the self-taught user. This is the barrier to not only Corel but most of the other programs. If the day comes that PDFs are accepted as the final map file format, Open Office Draw could be used by most anyone who is willing to spend a few hours with Mark's tutorial. We should expect younger measurers to be more software-savvy, too.

One advantage of Corel is that it is possible to save maps in a format that is acceptable for posting on USATF.org as is. That is, as would have been scanned, but without the scanning process. This now poses the potential to post color maps. Duane believes that Illustrator does not yet have the same capability. Here is an example of a small color PNG that meets our specs - <400KB, 300 DPI 2550 x 3300 pixels PNG: https://picasaweb.google.com/1...er=0&feat=directlink.
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I don't believe I have said Illustrator won't save files in png format. I can save color files as png, and have the correct resolution and file size. Illustrator may not have the ability to specify page size. I have not explored that, as I have a better way to create the png files than to look through the Illustrator documentation.
Actually, OpenOffice will save in PNG format too. The problem is that it is not very efficient at it, so the size of the PNG files it creates are very large. I don't know if any of the drawing programs can compete with Acrobat at creating high-resolution PNGs that are small in size.
Maybe we could have a contest?
Of course, Duane. I apologize if I was not clear. I just meant that I took you to mean that if there is a way in Illustrator to save as a PNG to all the necessary specs, we have not seen it yet. The fact that Jim can do this in Freehand and that I can do it in Corel informs me that it is likely possible in Illustrator.

If I work at it, I can get a color course map down to ~ 200 KB, with all the required specs. But this is not intuitive. And it requires expensive software. Whereas, as Mark says, Acrobat does it effortlessly with free software.

quote:
Originally posted by Duane Russell:
I don't believe I have said Illustrator won't save files in png format. I can save color files as png, and have the correct resolution and file size. Illustrator may not have the ability to specify page size. I have not explored that, as I have a better way to create the png files than to look through the Illustrator documentation.
In Illustrator you can also "Save a Copy" as PDF. Many times, that becomes a file larger than 1M. However, if you make all desired layers visible and not locked, then copy all and paste into a new file, then save a copy of that new file as PDF, the file is very small. Also, before saving a copy, the whole new file can be grouped and re-sized to what ever page size or shape you want.

Another suggestion; Conversion (Save As) to GIF, ICNS, JPEG, JPEG-2000, MS-BMP
, MS-Icon, OpenEXR, POF, Photoshop, PNG, TGA and TIFF is available via Mac Preview.
I would guess I am probably the only Corel Draw user out here. Corel gives you the option of saving to PDF in several file sizes. All of these options create a map that looks good on screen and that prints clearly.

Corel also gives you the option of exporting your map to a PNG file at 300 dpi, 2550 x 3300 pixels, 8 1/2" x 11", at less than 500Kb - in color. To my amazement, a color map so created prints almost as well as a large PDF of the same map.

Knowing that Illustrator and Corel Draw are comparable programs, I am wondering how the latest version of Illustrator does not have a similar capacity.

I have now submitted 3 color course maps in PNG and I believe they have been accepted as is for posting. I just submitted another one yesterday.

Open Office Draw PNGs are too large, but they can be reduced to less than 500KB by adjusting the compression. However, O.O. Draw does this by reducing the pixels too much. As far as I can tell, there is no way around this in the current version of Open Office.
Maybe this should be a new post, but...
Since Adobe decided to change from individual software licenses (Illustrator) and force everyone into the monthly fee use of "The Cloud", I've been looking for a replacement. I'm sure that in a few years my Illustrator CS6 will need something that Adobe will not support.

I found a suitable replacement called iDraw ($24.99, from Indeeo). It does much of what Illustrator does, most important (for me) is layers. It also opens and can modify Illustrator files. It is for Mac OSX (including Mavericks and Yosemite) and there's a version for iOS.
The curve tool in OpenOffice is definitely difficult to use. For the most part I don't use it in my maps.

The other disadvantage that I've found is that there is no list of layers that shows their status (locked/unlocked, hidden/visible, printable). Changing these toggles in OpenOffice is cumbersome. I used to use EZdraw and that had a layers table that you could select and unselect checkboxes to change layer statuses. Much nicer.

The major advantages of OpenOffice are that it is free, and it has a very shallow learning curve.

I noticed a couple things said earlier in this thread two years ago that need corrected/clarified.

OpenOffice Draw DOES have a multi-point line tool. The icon for it looks like a arbitrary-shape polygon tool, but it works just like a multi-point line tool.

Lyman stated that you can learn OpenOffice by spending a couple hours going through my manual/help file. That manual is mostly about drawing maps with OpenOffice. If you already know how to draw maps, and have some previous experience with a drawing tool such as Illustrator, Corel, or even Powerpoint, the learning curve for OpenOffice Draw will be a few minutes.
Nathan Porch, who occasionally posts here, took up the Open Office challenge using Mark Neal's tutorial. Right away, he produced maps that are better than most I get from measurers. Since then, his maps have got better and better. I for one am impressed with what Open Office Draw can do in the hands of someone who follows Mark's guidance and who has the will to continue honing his/her skills.
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Jim,
If you're using Freehand on a Mac, DO NOT update your OS to Mountain Lion. Freehand uses the Mac's PowerPC feature which goes unsupported in the Mountain Lion release of OSX.

Fortunately, I backed up my HD before updating, then had to erase my HD and restore the earlier release of OS to continue using Freehand. I'm not sure what I'll do when my Mac goes to its final resting place.

Ron
I have been using Inkscape. It is FREE, has LAYERS and will work on both Windows and MAC.
https://inkscape.org/en/

I don't do cert maps very often, but do a lot of bike routes.

I start with getting a basic bit map of the route, from Microsoft Streets and Trips, Google Earth, or Google Maps.

Then I cut area of the image I want with the FREE Gadwin PrinScreen. A very good tool you can download here > https://www.gadwin.com/download/PrintScreen_Setup.zip

I import that into Inkscape as my first Layer. Then resizing and selecting opacity, I lock the Layer and work with lines, symbols and text on the next few layers.

It helps a lot to have a templates or a blank drawing setup with your standard paper size, for me US letter), and other configuration items already selected.

For regular projects I have templates with arrows, boxes and useful regularly used text on secondary layer set outside the printed page.
This allows me to easily drag pre-defiend and sized objects onto the drawing. Ones work area is much larger than the actual drawing, which allows parking useful stuff outside the boarders of the final work product.

I have stacks of pre-duplicated objects so pulling one off means there is more of the same for easy moving onto drawing.

It does help to have two monitors, one with the work,and one with some of the tools open, like the layer tool for easy layer selection, and the fill and stroke tool for control of the objects properties.

You should also have all the horizontal tool bars turned on, so when you go to select something quick icons for things like flip and rotate are there, and when you select points on a line, quick icons for split, link etc are readily available.

Don't be intimidated by tutorials that teach you keys strokes for this or that, it is all available through the mouse, menus and controls.
About the only keyboard commands I use are the + and - for zooming in and out.

Like all drawing tools this one has a learning curve. Learning how to size, flip and use objects, and learning property controls like stroke width, color, style and endpoint control takes time. Once mastered you have a very powerful tool.

To help there are LOTS of Inkscape tutorials both linked from within Inkscape, on Youtube, on Vemo and elsewhere on the web.
https://inkscape.org/en/learn/

I find that from import of bitmap background to finished drawing of 15 mile route, with directions and streets identified in reverse color boxes takes about 60 minutes, but maybe only about 25 minutes if working fast.

Now and again I use it for doing race maps. Once you are comfortable with Inkscape, not a problem.

The ability to lock layers, and turn layers on and off for different versions of a map is very useful.
The tool allows things to be moved between layers, and in priority on a layer.

I also use it to layout plans for starting corrals, fencing, cones, etc.

Pro tool. Major plus that it is FREE, with plentiful tutorials.
I downloaded Inkscape on my MacBook Pro to give it a try. Started it up and get no menus, only Inkscape menu with only standard "Hide Inkscape," "Hide Others," and "Quit Inkscape" items available. I googled the problem and found that it has existed for some people since 2012 with no obvious solution that I can find.
Thanks Oscar, but I got it mostly working. On the Mac, Inkscape runs on top of another application XQuartz X11, and it appears to be an issue with how the two interact. If anyone else on a Mac is having trouble getting it to work I can walk you through what I did to make it work.

But anyway, any suggestions for online tutorials geared more to how we would use Inkscape to make maps? More on the practical side of drawing lines and manipulating objects, and less on the artistic stuff.
I'm still having issues with making files appear on my screen. It seems to be an problem with XQuartz X11 working incorrectly on the Mac. You're not having this problem Jim? I can create a new flie, but whenever I try to open an existing SVG file, it does not appear on the screen. The Finder says it's open, but it is nowhere to be seen.

But anyway, I'm pretty happy with using OpenOffice Draw for my maps. The one pet peeve I have with Draw is the way it handles layers. To toggle a layer's visibility or locked status you have to double-click the layer's tab, and then change the status of a checkbox. I would very much prefer a separate dialogue that lists all the layers with checkboxes for each for visibility, locking, etc.

Does Inkscape have something like the above for manipulating layers? If it does I might continue to pursue getting it to work correctly.
I've spent some time over the last week playing with Inkscape and was impressed. I'm frustrated, however, with my inability to save "styles" (not sure what the term is in Inkscape, which may be part of the problem). I.E., I want to create a "style" called "Road/Black" that is a black line, 10 pts. wide, another called "Road/White" that is white and 8 pts., etc. Is there an easy way to do that, so I can quickly apply style attributes to various lines and objects in a drawing?
I have not found a way to do that, Jim. You can copy an item with a desired style and then select an item you want and click "Paste Style". For words switching between layers, I frequently just copy a word in the style I want and paste it and type over that. Ugly but gets job done.
I start with a blank 3300 x 2550 template with layers set up as follows from bottom to top:
White Background - Easier getting rid of unwanted black - big white rectangle under everything
Layer 1 - Screenshot of GE mapped course.
Street Lines - Tracing of Streets maybe 20 in Black
Street Fill - Copy of Street Lines Change to White Stroke width say 18
Objects - Detail drawings, mile marks, etc.
Course Arrows - Detailed drawing of arrows all in same style
Alpha - all words all in same style.
Swatch of Oscar_11 which I gave to measuring partner/ certifer Dave Rogers who says he now easily gets our maps under 400K in Gimp. AND last couple have been VERY true to my "artistry".

Oscar_11:
GIMP Palette

Name: Oscar 11
Columns: 16#
0 220 0 Green
255 0 255 Magenta
255 255 0 Yellow
65 105 255 Blue
255 127 0 Orange
255 255 255 (white)
0 0 0 (black)
181 37 46 (usatf red)
1 38 57 (usatf blue)
96 96 91 (usatf gray)
142 146 149 (usatf silver)
Mark,
If you're referring to drawing "curbs",
my method is to draw a white line for the curbs at the appropriate width (let's say 20)
then copy/paste that line. The pasted line should cover the first exactly.
Then I reduce the width of the pasted line by 1 point and change its color to a darker color (grey 7 is a favorite).
As far as the route line, I don't copy and past this because its route is particular (SPR) compared to the road and starting fresh with the polygon tool is a best practice for me.

other helpful tips here:
1.Draw the curb and the road on separate layers. It's imperative if you want to properly draw intersections and it'll prove useful later if you need to edit some part.
2.Use the polygon tool to try and draw the route in as few segments as possible
3.Save often, crashes don't come often but they do come unexpectedly

All told, I love the OpenOffice Draw program. Just when I think I've exploited the software, I discover a new tool or better method to achieve my goals.



quote:
Originally posted by Mark Neal:
Dave,
Does openoffice draw have a tool to draw the parallel lines of road edges, or did you do that by copying, pasting, and shifting?
Nathan that question of mine that you're referring to is from 6.5 years ago!! Shortly after I asked that Jim Gerweck posted the double-think-line method of creating a network of roads that you mention, on a different thread. I used it for a couple years, but now I mostly create what Pete Riegel refers to as single line maps.

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