Delayed Certification/Gratification

You could split the difference. Send in the paperwork but don't tell them you did it, and don't send them a copy. Odds are they don't check the USATF site.

I'd bet they will pay you anyway, especially if they think they may want to work with you again.

I once did a half-marathon course for a friend. Sponsorship evaporated before I was paid, and I was reluctant to dun my friend for the fee. So I ate it without relish.

I've done hundreds of courses and this was the only time I got stiffed.

And to further complicate Jim's moral dilemma here:

If you follow Pete's suggestion, do you certify the course before the end of the year so it expires in 2021, or do you wait until January and give the race director a certified course for another year?

Glad I don't have to make this call...

Ok--firstly, that sucks. Secondly, how awkward. So, if you were to take Pete's suggestion..do they care in the end?--the course was advertised as the correct distance, and certified but paperwork stands in limbo. Guessing world records, no Boston qualifiers in the wings...You could call their bluff and publicly humiliate them in the circles that matter yada yada and you would not look the better for any of it. If that is their offer and the only way to get reimbursed by reasonable expectation, how about getting an agreement in writing with a late fee tacked on of appropriate penalty or the option to pay within 15 days without penalty? Was everything initially verbal or was there any sort of contract?

I'm always a little wary of races whose sole purpose for existing seems to be to make money for something or someone. I don't get that sense very often, but when I do I ask for payment in advance.

I would withhold the cert, don't send it to USATF, and keep the Effective Date back when it was effective. This way, they don't have a certified course for this year, and the course will expire when it should have.

I normally don't send the cert prior to receiving payment, so I at least have some leverage.

Good luck!

Jim's a Final Signatory, so when he prepares the certificate, the course is considered certified.

What if he wasn't?

If, while acting in one's capacity as a certifier, you get a message from a measurer saying not to issue a certificate on a course because the measure hasn't been paid? Everything else is OK- the measurer just wants it to be held up because he hasn't been paid.

Personally I see the certifier's role to be to get as many courses on the course list as possible- not to make sure measurers get paid. I'd issue the certificate. As a measurer you may do this because you get paid for it. As a certifier you do this to make the sport better. And if Jim were acting in the capacity of a certifier, I think he's be obligated to forward the course certificate to the vice-chair.

As for the scenario on the table, I don't see where you get much of anywhere by throwing your weight around. That being said, and in line with discussions I've recently had with Gene and Duane on the subject, I think the time has passed by which it made any difference if the documents were sent forward for this past year's event, and at this point you might as well hold the certificates until you get paid for the measurement.

And to respond to Mark's comment- I'd say that easily three quarters of the courses I measure are for somebody or some organization who is trying to make money with the event. It's usually a fundraiser for a charity or some other not-for-profit, but more and more we're seeing people put on races because they can make money off of them. If I adopted Mark's policy I'd be asking for an awful lot of checks up front.

Jay,
I agree that most races are trying to make money, usually for a charity. But in almost all of those cases the race director is also a runner who is genuinely interested in putting on a good event for other runners. It's the ones whose ONLY purpose seems to be to make money that I am wary about.

Jay,

Jim's certs are not effective until he sends them to the VC. He may review his work and write the cert, but it cannot become effective until sent to the next level. Just as my certs (as I am VC, and a measurer, and a FS) are not effective until I send them to the Registrar.

That said, if a measurer doesn't want a cert issued until he is paid, then don't submit the paperwork until payment has been received. The risk of this is that an error is detected by the Certifier, and changes need to be made. The course would then not be effective for the current-year's race, which could be an issue.

Payment issues are a dilemma. As Jay states, we are also serving the running community. We don't necessarily want the runners to be shorted due to lack of payment by a race, but that is reality. If time is running out, and we think we will get paid, we can submit the paperwork, but not supply the cert to the RD. Can be downloaded within a week, though, in most cases. We just don't have much recourse, and may have to trust races to pay us. We may be shorted over time, but for the most part, I think we will be paid.

Mark, you are lucky! Most of the courses I measure have race directors and committees that aren't runners. They just want to make money for their cause, so they put a committee together, usually with no runners on it. Talk about lack of direction!

The point that Duane has made is correct. Jim, you don't have a problem. The course isn't certified period! You are a FS and the effective date is the date you send in the Certificate to the next level. If you want to help your friend, then send it in and hope you receive payment.

The real question for Gene is why are you responding to this? I thought you are on a vacation!

Unfortunately, I have reached the point where I require payment at the time of measurement (with rare exceptions when dealing with a repeat customer with a good payment record). I just got tired of waiting months for payment and while I've never been "stiffed", I did have to take one guy to small claims court after waiting about 18 months for payment If you ever do this and if the organization is a corporation make sure to send the paperwork to the Registered Agent of the corporation. In the case above, the RA was the late Jesse Helm's law firm. I had payment within two days of them receiving the paperwork. In my experience, not-for-profits are the worst when it comes to timely payment.

quote:

Originally posted by Lyman Jordan:
Taking a lead from Duane, I think I have solved this problem. Since I have been sending out a 2-page agreement to every client in advance, I have had no problems. I require a 30 to 50% deposit along with a signed agreement to start work. The agreement lays out what I do and do not do for the total fee. I lay out the fees for contingencies such as re-design of the course and re-measuring due to lack of a completed permit for the course I measured.

The agreement specifies that I deliver the course map with the certification number (and the certificate if he/she wants it) after I receive full payment.

Like Duane, I often deal with non-runner organizers. Most are non-profits. Before I required signed agreements, my average payday was nearly two months after sending a bill. That is now down to less than 2 weeks.