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RRTC has been contacted by DAG Timing Systems requesting RRTC approval of their timing system. RRTC has already approved several other systems. Information about the system may be found at:

Dag Timing System

Runners wear a bib number containing a sensing loop. The signal is received when they run through a rectangular loop of detecting wire.

The bib number is disposable.

What does anybody know about this system?
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My name is Mike Chatfield with www.Finishtiming.com out of Springfield, Ohio. I am in the process of testing the system right now. I have a system that I am comparing to my Finishlynx camera during track season to see that it "receives" all bibs that cross the line. I am testing for the fact that I have the NCAA Div I Cross country Regional and also the Div III Nationals for 2006. My first test will be this weekend just to get a feel for how the system works. From what everyone has told me the only problem with it at all is if a runner crumples their number and accidentally breaks a wire in the bib. What my plan is is to have a person at the starting line checking people as they walk to the line to make sure the bib still is intact. I can give you some more info as I get it. Also I will be attending a Dag-System Conference on March 24th about the system.
If you need more info you can contact me at the number below.
Mike Chatfield
www.Finishtiming.com
mike@finishtiming.com
(937) 215-6299
My name is Jason Richardson and I am the Systems Administrator for PCR Timing in Rochester, NY. PCR was the second company in the US to have this product. I am PCR's timer for the DAG System, so if you have any questions please feel free to contact me at jason@pcrtiming.com. We've found that the DAG System is an excellent timing system, but yes...the bibs do need to be intact to get 100% of the finishers crossing the finish line. Obviously, there are backups in the place to catch any missed finishers if there is a problem with a bib, etc. I look forward to hearing from you.
Hello, my name is Stephen Carter, and I am the Director of Timing Services for TriTiming -- a timing company based in New York City and Long Island.

We are beginning our 3rd season using the disposable chip DAG system, and have had great success timing road races, biathlons, duathlons and triathlons. Last year I successfully timed over 16 races (nearly 7,000 competitors), many of which I had provided 3 splits for each competitor. I am fully capable of providing as many as 5 or more splits per competitor. I have also tested and studied the system for hundreds of hours, and have devised ways of using the system which allow me to time triathlons -- something that almost no other people are doing with the disposable Bib chip. I have formulated a novel way of implementing the handheld badger paddle -- a backup detection device -- at our split gate so as not to slow down the athletes and I have even discovered ways of maximizing the system's sensitivity by altering the primary antenna configuration.

Not withstanding a steep learning curve, the system's primary strengths are it's portability and cost relative to the other major chip systems. And of course the fact that the chips are disposable means there is no post-race chip collection; nor is there a "lost-chip" expense which is usually passed onto race directors with the other chip systems.

As most of you already know the DAG chips, like the other chip systems, are "passive" RFID tags which gain their power simply by passing through an electromagnetic field. They do not carry their own onboard power supply. In the case of the DAG chip, the chip itself is as small as a period on a printed page and is encased in a tiny quantity of epoxy resin, which itself is then covered with a small plastic shell. The rectangular wire connected to each side of the chip powers the chip. It is this wire and chip combination which are then attached to the backside of bib number via sticky backed transparent paper. As the chip and wire move through the electromagnetic field lines, a small current is "induced" within the wire and it is this small electrical pulse that activates and energizes the chip. This in turn causes the chip to emit a response through it's wire, which is then detected by the overhead detection antenna cable which is creating the EM field in the first place.

It is for this reason that the chip and wire configuration on the back of the bib are very sensitive to alterations in their shape or orientation as they pass through the detection gate. Although the chips and wires themselves are very nearly indestructible and totally waterproof, the wire can be mangled and bent by Bib's that are crumpled or folded, especially if worn on a racing belt. This then compromises the ability of the chip to gain enough electrical power to say: "Hello, I am here." and thus the primary antenna cable can potentially "miss" the chip. The handheld badger paddle not only augments and verifies the order of finish for competitors, but also corrects for any missed chips at the detection gate, thus providing a 100% detection rate.



However, this "seemingly" clumsy wire predicament is actually the primary reason why the chip can be produced for so little and thus be made disposable. Although it is true that the other chip manufactures make much tighter and smaller "induction coils" attached to their chips, these more compact designs also carry much higher production costs, and thus have not yet become "truly" disposable. But most importantly, the larger induction wire, situated on the backside of a bib number, allows for a much larger aperture of detection. By this I mean there is a much greater volume of "airspace" in which a chip can be detected within. The 2.3 meter detection gate measure 7 feet by 7 feet and the chip is detectable anywhere within that entire volume of space, and even somewhat beyond. That is quite a feet when you consider that the other major chip companies that rely on detection mats, cannot guarantee a detection if the competitor is wearing a chip on their ankle and happens to have their foot raised -- say while in mid-stride while crossing a "single" detection mat.



So by making the DAG chip with it's rectangular induction wire measuring 6.5 inches wide by 5.5 inches tall for the smallest sized bib chips, Pygmalyon, the French company which produces the DAG chip have essentially lowered the cost of production reaching disposable chip values and also increased the area of detection for their chip at the finish line. This is countered by the lack of competitor familiarity with the chip and the sensitivity of the chip to competitor mishandling.

It is imperative then that race directors give explicit and detailed directions to their competitors on how to properly use the DAG chip. New York Triathlon Club, one of our major clients, relays to their competitors very explicit instructions concerning the DAG chip both on their web site as well as during both their pre-race announcements and during number pickup. For example, bib's should not be stuffed or folded into pockets during packet pickup or at any time before or during the race. This type of competitor education is one of the simplest and most effective way of maximizing the DAG systems performance.

Best of luck to you this racing season,

Stephen Carter
Director of Timing Services
TriTiming
P.O. Box 700
Mt. Marion, NY 12456
Last edited by stephencarter
Stephen,
I have been timing all kinds of events (Triathlons, Ski Racing, MTB, Running) for over a decade. More and more I am doing triathlons and my clients are looking for me to do Chip Timing. I have been looking at the DAG system as an option, but don't understand using the overhead loop how to get the times as the leave the water. I understand they have a mat system as well, but for this they use an ankle strap and the costs increase making the disposable benefit go down. Can you explain how you get the swim time before the bib goes on and what you mean by paddle?
Feel free to e-mail me directly.
Thanks,
Jenna
jenna@allsportsevents.com
Hello Jenna,

The original DAG system which relies upon a disposable chip attached to the back of the bib number was not originally optimized for the timing of triathlons. Their newer triathlon based system relies upon a chip attached to the shoe (called a foot DAG). It is still possible to time triathlons with the bib DAG; however, you must come up with some creative means of collecting swim times if you intend on providing separate transition times. If you are not providing separate transition times and instead are including transition times within one or two of the splits then split times will be collected outside of the transition area at bike-out/bike-in/run-out. Finish times will be collected at the finish line allowing for each competitor to receive 3 split times plus a final time for a total of four times.

It is important to remember that the bib DAG is completely waterproof and can be submerged without any ill effects on performance. It is feasible to have competitors wear the chips on their swim and to thus capture their swim time at some point before T1. It is also possible with smaller triathlons and/or triathlons which feature a long-distance swim to capture swim times using the Time Machine with all Select Times imported as Actual Times since no tags will be pulled using this method. This can be achieved only with low competitor densities at the water exit, consistent with smaller venues or races which have very long swims as this tends to attenuate the competitor density.

Another technique involves using the Badger's number pad without scanning bib numbers with the Badger paddle. Instead, the hand-held Badger number pad is used like the Time Machine number pad, and all times are entered just like Select Times on the Time Machine. In fact the Badger paddle can even be disconnected and removed from the number pad since you will not be using the paddle to scan any numbers. The Badger will still continue to communicate wirelessly with the DAG system, recording times for each competitor who is entered this way.

Stephen Carter
Director of Timing Services
TriTiming
P.O. Box 700
Mt. Marion, NY 12456
Thanks for the response. The issue with the triathlon system is that it uses mats with ankle chips but the mats don't work with the disposable chips (the advantage of the DAG system is lost).

Some of my races require 5 splits, some three. Obviously the disposable chpis would work for three splits but not 5. I can't afford to buy two sets of decoders.

Thanks for the help.
Jenna
Has anyone out there used the DAG shoe chip in a traditional way? What I mean is a wide chip start of at least 25-26 feet in width and a standard chip finish, similar to what is standard at most ChampionChip races? What I'm really interested in is the start more than the finish. We had a problem in our first use of DAG. We had promised "net" times and couldn't deliver.
Bob Richards
Co-director, Community Bank of Elmhurst 4 on the 4th (4-mile race)
Bob,

Dag has been trying to get us(RRTC) to apporve their timing system for over a year. They have yet provided me with the correct information verifying their system is accurate. I am now waiting for results from a race in NJ to show that Dag system has worked properly.

I would appreciate a contact from you explaining what exactly went wrong.

Best Regards,

Gene Newman
RRTC Chair
Ph; 520-648-3353
email: newmangc@cox.net
Gene,

Did you get the information regarding the DAG system from the NJ race? I assume you were referring to the Verizon Wireless Race, we saw they were using the program there. If you have any information on the system could you share it.

Also, I time track & field events & wondered if anyone has used a photo finish timing program for a road race. I know they use a version in cycling races.

Thanks
I have being using the DAG system for about 3 years down in Melbourne, Australia. our biggest event is around 24,000 and we do another 10 events around 2000 people. The system has gone well most of the time. we always get faulty dags, but the number of them has been getting smaller in the last year.

the main problem we have is the realibity of the badgers the back-up system. They don't seem to last very long. we always have enough of them working, but struggle to get all them up and going at once. Does everyone have this problem?

Has anyone upgraded to version 6? we haven't as yet. I would be interested to hear anyone that has and how it has gone.
Hello Nick,

The Badgers are a known battery hog and in very long races will have to have the batteries changed. What we do is have one or two extra badgers with fresh batteries turned off for most of the finish. When we notice the power getting down to "one bar" on the badger display for the Badgers being used, we simply turn the backup Badgers on and hand them to the volunteer. We then swap out the old batteries in the first Badger and turn it off using that now as our backup. Thus we can keep going like this indefinitely.

As for getting all of them up and running at once, this is also not a problem as long as you make sure all of your subscriptions are setup ahead of time. Since each Badger gets one subscription to the Black Box, it is much easier to setup all your Badgers the night before the race. First clear out all of the previous subscriptions in the Black Box and then start over, subscribing each Badger one at a time. Once all of the Badgers are subscribed you do not need to do anything else and can turn everything off for the night. When you turn them on in the morning during your race preparations, all the subscriptions will still be there, and you should have no problems. I never subscribe a badger on race day if I can avoid it -- even the backup Badgers.

As one further note, it seems much easier to subscribe one Badger at a time and have all other badgers turned off while doing so. I have found that if other badgers are on and communicating wirelessly with our Black Boxes that sometimes the subscription does not take. Once every badger has a subscription, you may turn all of the Badgers on to make sure they are all working together.

Lastly, we have upgraded all of our firmware to the latest editions for version 4 but have not upgraded to version 6 either.

Stephen Carter
Director of Timing Services
TriTiming
P.O. Box 700
Mt. Marion, NY 12456
*** DAG Equipment FOR SALE ***

Hello,

For those of you who are interested we have decided to sell our DAG equipment at a significantly reduced price. As you know, our equipment is fully functional and has been used to successfully time and score over 60 races -- most of which included 3 splits.

Since we have multiple systems, we are more then willing to sell them as individual components or as complete stand alone setups. Certainly if you have only one system, this would give you the ability to generate splits if you are not already able to do so.

If you or someone you know is interested, please let me know as soon as possible since I can't guarantee that our inventory will last. For further information please contact me at SACarter3@aol.com.

Stephen Carter
Director of Timing Services
TriTiming
P.O. Box 700
Mt. Marion, NY 12456
Hello Jenna,

We are currently selling our equipment because I am leaving the industry. We had considered keeping our equipment and finding someone willing to be trained to fill the position but this became very difficult as we unfortunately soon realized.

Best regards,

Stephen Carter
Director of Timing Services
TriTiming
P.O. Box 700
Mt. Marion, NY 12456

Message from Stephen Carter

I apologize but we have already sold all of our systems. If something should change I will let you know.
Last edited by peteriegel
Is anyone selling championchip or ipico or winning time systems?


quote:
Posted 04 July 2009 13:40 Hide Post
Our system is now officially for sale. Paid $8500 for it in Spring of 08. Will sell for $2000 obo. Includes timing hardware, approx 950 chips and the carrying case.



Please email shawn@gcrunner.org if interested. Thanks!
If you are still looking for a DAG timing system, I have two of them, a smaller BB3 which has one antenna. I also have a BB5 with 4 antennas for both a foot system and the bib system.

I will be selling one of them and keeping one. I just have more stuff then I need. I also have a 4 meter 2d antenna for timing bike races.

All the equipment has been recently upgraded with the latest firmware, and is working great.

I can be reached at tk@nfsrv.com

Thanks

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