Soliciting measurements, local and distant

Yes I see a problem with this. It happened in my area recently. In the case in question, a course for a prominent race was due for re-certification at the end of 2011. An out-of-town measurer approached the RD and persuaded him to have it measured unnecessarily early. We have four local experienced measurers, one being me and another one being another final signatory, so it was not due a lack of local talent. Now if the RD approaches an out-of-town measurer because none of the local measurers are available or too pricey, then that's a different story, but that was not the case here.

Good point, but different scenario than what I was thinking about. My scenario would be a non-certified course, not a course that is set to expire.

But, you bring up a good point - we (measurers) should be contacting race directors whose courses are about to expire. I would not assume those are fair game for a traveling measurer, unless there is no one nearby.

This is a difficult area on which to comment. I've been reluctant to unilaterally advise races to get their courses certified because I don't have the energy to follow up on all the measuring that might result.

In Columbus there are not a lot of measurers and I do most of what's done.

We had a case several years ago when a hard-charging measurer invaded another measurer's area and used high-pressure tactics to convince people that the other measurer was inept, which was untrue. This was seen as egregious bad manners, but nothing formal resulted, except a tarnishing of the invader's reputation.

We have a good product, and I believe it sells itself. It is seen to have value. That said, I have no problem with anyone coming to Columbus and measuring away. Have at it!

Because I'm first and foremost a certifier, when people contact me for a measurement I first advise them to consider doing it themselves, and I offer to advise and help with everything except my butt on the seat. Some do, and this makes me glad. Most do not, to my regret.

Good point on the ethics. That would be a stipulation, if we did have a written policy regarding soliciting measurements. I would never bash another's work. Each person has their mapping methods, but we all follow the same process to measure the course. In the measurement respect, if the course is accepted by the Certifier, all measurements should be of equal quality.

I agree with encouraging races to measure for themselves, and just got a new person in Pueblo to begin by measuring his own course. He will now measure other courses in Pueblo, for other people. It began when he called to have me come down to measure his 5k.

By the way, there were two young men from Columbus at the Buffalo workshop. I will follow-up with them, and see if they will be shifting some of the work off of your bike seat.

Duane,

Put them in touch with me and I'll pass on some of the incoming jobs, and otherwise help them get started.

Duane,

Thanks for posting this question. It is a worthwhile discussion for me for all the reasons discussed here.

One thing I have noticed lately is some "shopping" for measuring rates. This is the way a free market works, but it can push rates down to a point where it is hard to justify the effort even as "a hobby that pays".

Sometimes that competition comes to the D.C. region from out of the area. Travelers from other parts of the country charge fees that are lower than we in the D.C area charge. When you consider the difference in the cost of living between say, cities in the Midwest or the South to the D.C region, D.C measurers are paid less than measurers in other areas if they charge the same rates - such as those on your web site. As much as 35% less.

Occasionally I measure in D.C itself, when Bob Thurston is not available (I live close by in Maryland). When you measure anywhere near the U.S. Capitol or the White House, the amount of time you must spend with the authorities in advance of measuring spans a range from non-trivial to daunting, depending on the course in question. I have been detained by police on 4 occasions while measuring despite hours spent ensuring advance notification to all authorities concerned of the exact date, time, purpose, and place of measuring. Coordination between the numerous police forces in D.C. is notoriously lacking. Once I was detained by Capitol Hill Police for 30 minutes. No kidding, I believe it was only the "USATF" on the old course map I had with me that convinced the out-of-the-loop detaining officers that I was who I said I was.

My clients get a professional-quality color map for web posting and a black and white version for printing. Due to the recent discussion here, I intend to start including an elevation profile on my maps(thanks for all the tips).

My point is that measuring jobs sometimes take a large amount of work relative to the meager fees we charge. I feel we are worth nearly whatever we charge. Furthermore, I think our current fees are almost ridiculously low with the possible exception of that rare 5K on a quiet nearby road whose RD contacts you well in advance of race day. When you think about our fees on a per-hour basis, it is clear that one has to do this as a labor of love.

If I decide to put up a site advertising my service, my rates will definitely be higher than Duane's. If I am asked to travel out of the region to measure - I have not yet done so - I will not lower my rates, nor otherwise intrude into another established measurer's territory.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Russell:
I accept that some measurers are performing their service as a way to "give back" to the running community. I also understand that some make themselves available, for a fee, to any race who needs their course certified, while not actively marketing their service. I am one of those, however, who are actively soliciting measurement opportunities, as a way to have a hobby that pays. While some see this as blasphemous, I see nothing wrong with encouraging a race to offer a better (accurate) product (course) to their participants. With that in mind, I want to get opinions regarding the solicitation of business outside of my residential area.

What I am looking for is comment regarding, for instance, planning a vacation to some distant area, and contacting the races in that area who do not currently use a certified course, to line-up measurements while I am there. This would take planning, but it not infeasible.

If there is no measurer in a town, I don't see a problem. But, if there is a measurer there who does not actively seek to measure non-certified courses, would I be stepping on toes when I contact a race director? It seems to me that if a measurer is not actively seeking measurements with existing races, this is fair game for anyone else to pursue. If I want to do some work while in an area, I can write-off my trip, and still have some relaxation time.

Does anyone see a problem with trying to plan measurements away from where a measurer lives, even if there is currently a measurer nearby?

Lyman, I appreciate the difference in rates around the country. I have found the rates here in the Denver area to be higher than the midwest, but had not heard of higher rates in the D.C. area. It costs more when you have to work closely with government, no doubt.

Make no mistake that I do up-charge for extra time and travel, so if someone says "RaceMeasure will do it for ...", remind them that is the base fee, and doesn't include travel, or attending meetings, etc. for clearance from police. I have been fortunate, I suppose, that only one course has required coordinating with security personnel, so my rates pay a good hourly rate. I do pay attention to that.

If anyone feels my posting of rates is a hinderance to their pricing, please let me know, and we will figure out a way to not have you "shopped-down". I don't want to take anyone's negotiation position away from them.

I appreciate your sensitivity to pricing issues, Duane. If a prospective client sees your price list and questions my rates (only marginally higher than yours at present), I can explain that your posted rates are the base fees. Trying to ascertain what to charge for last-minute requests, multiple GMap/MMR design iterations, police coordination and such is a challenge I will have to surmount. As it stands now, my hourly rate is something less than "good" for most of my jobs.