Should a course be taken off the USATF web site

I would agree that the old course should remain unless there is some specific reason it is no longer valid (i.e. geography change such as road rework, start / finish area no longer available, etc).

This brings up the issue of why a course shouldn't have a race name. For example, I decide to put on the Groundhog Day 5K, and have the course certified under that name instead of "Southport 5km." The following year I decide to change the course to eliminate some hills and traffic issues, and have it remeasured, once again as "Groundhog Day 5K." I obviously don't want 2 courses of the same name on the list, so ask for the original to be replaced. It's still a perfectly good course and the local garden club wants to use it for their Arbor Day 5K, and I have no objection, since I like trees. But it would look odd for their course to be named after a rodent rather than a tree, and anyway, it's no longer listed on the site. Also, what if after switching to the new course, I decide I liked the old one better, and want to go back to it next year?

So, bottom line:

1. Strongly, STRONGLY discourage naming a course after a race.

2. If that still occurs, if it is replaced, leave the original course on the list, but differentiate the replacement somehow, e.g. "Snowflake 4 Mile 2009." If you look at the course list for Central Park races, there are many races with multiple courses, differentiated by "72nd St. Start" etc.

I believe a course should remain certified until it expires, with the following exceptions:
1) The roads change and the course no longer exists as measured.
2) The course fails validation.

As for a course not having a race name, it's a nice, efficient idea but would be unpopular with the race directors we serve. Races want to "own" the course. At present the occasional naming confusion is a small problem, and I'd just as soon see it ignored.

Gene's question is "Should we keep the old course[in the list of certified courses] as it may be used by others since it has not expired?" I agree with his answer. There seems to be no reason to take it off the list of certified courses. It is still certified to be at least the advertised distance (assuming no changes). Again, we certify courses, not races. If a race director wants a new course measured and certified, there is and should be no impact on already certified courses.

Jim's issue of courses named after races is probably the root of the de-listing question. I don't see how we measurers can enforce a course naming convention that doesn't include the name of the race. Usually the race pays for the measurement and certification and really doesn't care about the difficulty of keeping the list of certified courses free from duplicate names. Additionally, measuring is supposed to be doable by anyone. I seriously doubt that a race director who decides to measure his/her course for certification will name the course after a physical attribute of the course as opposed to the name of his/her race.

What is the problem with having multiple courses with the same name? The certification code is unique for each. What better way for us (the RRTC community) to pressure the use of the Cert. Code than to inform our customers that there may be duplicate course names and that the Cert. Code should always be used when referring to the course.

Pete
Guido Bros

A web site searcher encountering a duplicate name should always choose the newest one, as indicated by the course code. In cases where the year is the same for two or more courses, some map downloading is in order, or a direct question to the race organization.

Guido has a very good point - the Cert. code is what is really important, not the name. We need to impress on race directors to advertise the cert number in all of their publicity.

Also brings up a shortcoming of the USATF site in the display of results - while the list is sorted by City, it should also have a secondary sort by Course Name. There are many times that big cities have multiple courses with very similar names, but they don't display together. Easy to miss a newer course, if you don't examine the list. The additional sort is an easy fix, if they want to do it.

As Pete points out, we do still need to use the "Replaces" mechanism. If a course changes due to hazards or impediments, no one can use the old course. And, if a race that has exclusive use of a course (Half-marathons and Marathons, typically) changes their course, no one else is going to use the old course. It needs to be removed from search results, as it is no longer a viable course.

But, if they change a course for reasons Jim gives, the course is still viable, and needs to be retained. Measurers need to be sure if a course needs to be removed from the list, or kept for possible use in the future.

Most runners who look for a certification map search for it based on the race name. Yes, they can always ask the race director for the cert #, but the whole point of having a website is to make information easy to obtain.

A big problem with looking for the newest certification of a race is that the newest certification often doesn't appear on the website until after the race is over.

There is a field on the website that lists the status of the course. However, I looked through the listings for three large states, and although there are 9 different possible statuses, the only ones that ever appeared were Active, Validated, and Renewed. I think the other possibilities for this field should be removed from the description if they are not being kept up to date. Better to have no information than wrong information.

At the present time the following is what happens on the USATF site for finding courses.

The old course actually stays on the list when given a "D" status code, which is the standard procedure when a newer course says on its certificate that it replaces an older course. However the old course won't show up when doing a default search, where the "Course status" field is set to "active". To see the old course, people must then explicitly set "Course status" to "any" which will show courses that have been replaced, expired, etc.
The only problem is the map for the old Course doesn't show.

I will contact USATF to correct this so the map will appear.

This is not solving the case as one may still be able to use the old course and it should remain active.



Best regards,

Thanks Gene. My mistake. I didn't notice that course status filter.

I just discovered the following. I can still state on the original course Data base list that a course is “R” or “D”, but not delete the original course, then both course will show up. When you look at all fields you will see the new course is a replacement for the original. Check out CO09001DCR and then CO08003DP.

This should solve the problem. I will do it this way for all future courses.

Our Regional Certifiers could place on the map this is a replacement for XYZ course.

Best Regards,

Gene

The above arguments are all good arguments for keeping the courses.

One more: You don't own a course therefore you don't have the right to kill it.

Someone else may use if they like, either to run a race or just time themselves. Once certified it is good unless it fails validation or the road bed moves. If the map is good it should be able to re-establish it even if paved over.

Name courses by location !!

If you have to replace the course with one having a similar name just add the year to the end. "Bunny Hop 5K 2007" This will also people show the first year the new course was run. When they look at the listing they will see:

Bunny Hop 5K 2001
Bunny Hop 5K 2004
Bunny Hop 5K 2007
Bunny Hop 5K I'm not sodding doing this again.