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quote:
Originally posted by Gene Newman:
I don't understand what you want. Our certificate should not have track on it in my opinion.
- or at leat I
I doubt what you say is true. The bike in my view will not be the best way to measure a track.

Andy Carr and David have a explained this well. Read it.


Did you read what I wrote, Gene?

Let's try to get past the idea that anyone here is advocating that we start certifying tracks for a moment - and see if there is anything worthwhile to discuss before anyone unilaterally shuts down this discussion. At the least, we may come to a better understanding of how and why we do what we do. Sound fair?

Seems to me we are saying that our measuring methods are fine for roads, but not adequate for tracks. To me, this implies that there may be some different standard for track measurement, separate and apart from the measuring instruments and the particular measuring protocol employed for any particular track. If we feel this is true, what is the reasoning for having two different standards? Are track races - assuming curbs are properly installed - something we just assume are inherently more accurate and/or valid than certified road races/courses? We see here there are at least two examples in which the tracks are way off.

Jeff's experience with the track he measured is similar to that of my experience with the track I measured. I cannot speak for Jeff, but I feel safe in speculating that Jeff and I both are connoting that our track measurements yielded differences between the advertised length of the track and our measurements that seem too large for a professional survey of the same track measurement to be anywhere close to agreeing with the advertised distance. Make sense?

What we - or at least I - am postulating is that many, maybe most tracks, are not as accurate as our certified road courses are. I am willing to bet there is more evidence of this out there that could be related by our fellow measurers.

This leads me to ask what the IAAF and USATF standards are for track measurements. In particular, what are the track distance measurement standards for accepting records for track performances? Obviously, many if not most tracks cannot produce a surveyor's certificate. So, how do we know whether they may be short or long, and by how much?

When we use one of our measuring methods, whether it is the Baumel method, or a Jones Counter application on a track, and the resulting measurement is several meters different than the nominal track distance, what if anything may we glean from this? How does this affect the validity of races conducted on this track? Most importantly, what does this imply, particularly if our methods expose a track to be SHORT of the advertised distance?

I'd like to hear from Andy or anyone else in the know what our criteria are for accepting performances that are published as records on these tracks. Maybe there is more here than meets the eye...
I am curious about these measurements people have made that have come out to 403m or 397m. Were those done with the method that assumes circular curves? If so we're saying that the people who laid out the track made a mistake in getting the distance correct, but we are assuming that they still managed to create circular turns. I'm okay with this method if it is used just to confirm that a track is a standard length. If we are going to make the extraordinary claim that a track is not a standard distance we need to have a direct measurement of the track that makes no assumptions
Lyman, I was too quick to make that comment as you posted. After talking to Katz, we are going to come up with a way to have consistency with measuring a Road race and track.

You are not as good as a professional surveyor as you say. It's more likely you and Jeff may have made a mistake. However, that is not a point to labor on.

I can tell you "Track" will not be on the certificate as we should never have certified a track. We should have certified a track as a Road Race.

I know this my upset some, but it will be explained clearly by the middle of next week.
Good lively discussion guys. Thanks! I feel bad because all Gene wanted to do was simplify the road cert form.

I agree with Lyman's implication that we probably can not resolve the broader issues stirred up here within RRTC alone. An ideal solution might be for USATF to have the Track & Field equivalent of RRTC handle these things. Do we have a "TFTC"?

Here's what troubles me about this now: While trying to see if the Anchorage "The Dome" track ever had actually been 400 meters, I learned that the current operators are actually publishing the following:

"At 180,000 square feet, The Dome is officially the largest sports complex of its kind on the planet
... The Dome houses a 400-meter USA Track & Field certified track, ... and much more."

Yikes! Re the track: that's doubly wrong! I don't think there is such a thing as a "USATF Certified Track" and our guys didn't "certify the track", they only certified the distance of a lap and in so doing demonstrated that it was not 400 meters.

Well, there's David's proof that folks will misunderstand and abuse our efforts to convey the measured length of a lap.

I think it was a valuable and constructive service to cost-effectively deliver the one track parameter most runners were interested in. But, to preserve our good reputation, if we can't find a way to better distinguish between "certifying a track" and certifying the running length of a lap of the track, then perhaps we should exit this service.

Should we perhaps call it a "certified lap"? Would that prevent the abuse?

JJ
quote:
Originally posted by Gene Newman:
Lyman, I was too quick to make that comment as you posted. After talking to Katz, we are going to come up with a way to have consistency with measuring a Road race and track.

You are not as good as a professional surveyor as you say. It's more likely you and Jeff may have made a mistake. However, that is not a point to labor on.

I can tell you "Track" will not be on the certificate as we should never have certified a track. We should have certified a track as a Road Race.

I know this my upset some, but it will be explained clearly by the middle of next week.


Hah-ha, Gene. Show me where I am claiming to be a "professional surveyor", or how I implied this. If you actually read the post, you will see that I make no such claim. So, what compels you to make such an irrelevant statement?

Sure, Jeff or I could have made mistakes. Certainly, we have here two examples where track constructors have made mistakes. Might there be more?

Even Bob Thurston, with whom I measured this track, could have made a mistake. But - really? In my 35 years' experience and IMHO, Bob Thurston is as or more meticulous a measurer than anyone, Mr. Katz included. We steel tape measured both curves, measured the sides, the width in several places, employed the Baumel formula, then did it all over again. This took about 4 hours. After all of this, who here would speculate that the track constructor was more accurate than mathematician Bob?

Mark, thanks for bringing up this important topic. I conclude that we are now contemplating a new category of measurement - for a race that happens to be wholly conducted on a track - for which our road certification standards may be applied. This would avoid the entire thicket of "track certification", which is not our business. We would need to make careful calculations to determine the placement of the Start, Finish, and of the timing points. But it seems to me that this can be no more challenging to measure or to conduct a race for than a road race. We would clearly indicate that the "running course" is USATF certified, and that we make no claim as to the distance of a single track lap.

I am still curious about IAAF and USATF standards for acceptance of record performances on tracks. Are all of these records backed up by track survey certificates? In two out of two track measurements described in this thread, the tracks were measured to be different from their respective advertised distances. This does not give me confidence that most tracks are accurate.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyman Jordan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gene Newman:
Lyman, I was too quick to make that comment as you posted. After talking to Katz, we are going to come up with a way to have consistency with measuring a Road race and track.

You are not as good as a professional surveyor as you say. It's more likely you and Jeff may have made a mistake. However, that is not a point to labor on.

I can tell you "Track" will not be on the certificate as we should never have certified a track. We should have certified a track as a Road Race.

I know this my upset some, but it will be explained clearly by the middle of next week.


Hah-ha, Gene. Show me where I am claiming to be a "professional surveyor", or how I implied this. If you actually read the post, you will see that I make no such claim. So, what compels you to make such an irrelevant statement?

Sure, Jeff or I could have made mistakes. Certainly, we have here two examples where track constructors have made mistakes. Might there be more?

Even Bob Thurston, with whom I measured this track, could have made a mistake. But - really? In my 35 years' experience and IMHO, Bob Thurston is as or more meticulous a measurer than anyone, Mr. Katz included. We steel tape measured both curves, measured the sides, the width in several places, made careful temperature adjustments of the tape, employed the Baumel formula, then did it all over again. This took about 4 hours. After all of this, who here would speculate that the track constructor was more accurate than mathematician Bob?

Mark, thanks for bringing up this important topic. I conclude that we are now contemplating a new category of measurement - for a race that happens to be wholly conducted on a track - for which our road certification standards may be applied. This would avoid the entire thicket of "track certification", which is not our business. We would need to make careful calculations to determine the placement of the Start, Finish, and of the timing points. But it seems to me that this can be no more challenging to measure or to conduct a race for than a road race. We would clearly indicate that the "running course" is USATF certified, and that we make no claim as to the distance of a single track lap.

I am still curious about IAAF and USATF standards for acceptance of record performances on tracks. Are all of these records backed up by track survey certificates? In two out of two track measurements described in this thread, the tracks were measured to be different from their respective advertised distances. This does not give me confidence that most tracks are accurate.
Mark, I missed my promotion to "professional surveyor". I thought I was only a measurer. Turns out, not only was I somehow promoted from measurer to surveyor, I am not as good a surveyor as I thought I was. So clearly, I was wrong and out of line.

Since Gene poured cold water on this lively and valuable topic that you started, I will just shut up now and not trouble poor Gene any more with my nettlesome questions or ideas.

The BB was fun while it lasted. Thanks for all that you do.
Personally I like the idea of the RRTC Certifying track courses. Who is doing it now?

USATF/LDR records are kept for road and track races, as well as ultra and race-walk. RRTC is USATF/LDR’s technical advisor specifically for road racing. Can’t the RRTC scope be slightly broadened to include track courses or simply all LDR events?

The Application for Record - Road Race asks about the course certification. The Application for Record - Track Race asks about the Surveyor of the course (track). The RRTC is a natural agent to act as the Surveyor, especially in those cases the track surveyor is absence.

Assisting in the LDR track records process could easily be patterned on the Validation process for road races. Finally, the RRTC certainly has the technical knowledge how to measure road courses of all types of surfaces, which sometimes include tracks.
Kevin, thanks for your questions and suggestions. Below is what the RRTC has decided to your post.

Your statement-- "Personally I like the idea of the RRTC Certifying track courses. Who is doing it now?" Kevin we don't certify tracks for track records. Andy Carr has stated that if it is a track record, then our certificate is not even looked at. One must present a certificate from a surveyor for the track record to be upheld.

Your statement-- "Can’t the RRTC scope be slightly broadened to include track courses or simply all LDR events?" The answer is no as must go by the IAAF standards, which means a surveyor must do it for a track event.

Your statement--"The RRTC is a natural agent to act as the Surveyor, especially in those cases the track surveyor is absence." The answere is no. Our method that Bob Baumel uses is good, but we don't have the expertise to place all the correct markings on the track for a track event.

Bob is going to make up a new certificate removing "Track" from the type of course. After much discussion, the officers have concluded we can only measure a track for a road race. To have "Track" as a check box is misleading. Hence, where it says "Type of Surface" and you have a road race on the track, then mark it 100% track.

The next question is what will be the acceptable method to measure a track for a road race. This will be discussed at our annual meeting.
Several people in this thread have referred to the "Baumel method" of measuring a track. This refers to a document I wrote which is posted at www.usatf.org/Products---Servi.../Taping_a_Track.aspx and it's also linked from www.rrtc.net -- And now, to make it still easier to find, I've made the shortcut www.rrtc.net/taping_a_track which redirects to the same pdf file as the long URL above.

As one important point, the above document describes methods of measuring a track using steel tape, but says nothing about certifying it. I'll return to the question of (RRTC) certification of a track later. But first, let's discuss the accuracy obtainable using the methods in this document. And here I'll point out a fundamental difference between the measurements made by surveyors in officially surveying a track, and the measurements we make. The official survey measurements, following procedures specified by IAAF, are based on knowing the exact locations of the radius centers. Our task is rather different, as we're given an already constructed track, for which we don't know the radius center locations, and we want to determine a single number--the distance covered in running a lap of the track.

The document at www.rrtc.net/taping_a_track actually describes two methods. It states: "If curb is suitable, then tape circumference directly along outer edge of inner curb. If not, then use “Length-Width” method." I think we'd all agree that the first method (direct curb circumference taping) is highly accurate. In fact, its accuracy should match the accuracy obtainable in any careful steel taping. There was a time when many tracks, with either an asphalt or cinder running surface, had a permanent concrete curb that provided a good support for stretching a tape along. However, most tracks of that type have been replaced with more modern synthetic surface tracks, which don't have permanent curbs. Either they have no curb at all (typical of high school tracks), or they have a removable curb, which wouldn't provide suitable support for taping along, even when the curb is in place. Generally, the tracks with removable curbs are intended for higher level competition (e.g., university level or above), so a surveyor's certificate ought to be available. Thus, we're concerned mainly with uncurbed tracks, and the accuracy of "Length-Width" measurements for such tracks.

The Length-Width method described at www.rrtc.net/taping_a_track involves measuring two widths, W1 and W2. There is, however, a simpler Length-Width method that would involve measuring only one width (which might be measured along the 50-yard line if there's a football field marked on the infield). Here, if we've measured length L and width W, the circumference would be found by:
Circumference = 2*L + (pi - 2)*W
This ought to be accurate if the track has perfect geometry consisting of straightaways and semicircles at each end. The formula at www.rrtc.net/taping_a_track is obtained from the simple formula above by replacing W with the average of two width measurements, W1 and W2, in order to account for minor departures from perfect track geometry. As far as I know, the idea for doing this was originally due to Bob Letson. The widths W1 and W2 should be chosen near the ends of the straightaways, but clearly within the straightaways - don't waste time trying to locate junctions of straightaways and curves (if there's a football field marked on the infield, you might measure along the 5-yard lines).

How accurate is this refined Length-Width method (with the two widths, W1 and W2)? Back in 1986, Glen Lafarlette and I measured a track which had a permanent concrete curb, using both this Length-Width method and direct circumference taping. I wrote it up in the article "Measurement of Memorial High School Track, Tulsa, OK" in June 1986 Measurement News, which you can access at http://www.runscore.com/course...mentNews/017_86a.pdf (and if you don't know who Glen Lafarlette was, see www.rrtc.net/lafarlette_tribute.pdf). We found that, when using the same steel tape, the two methods agreed within one centimeter. This was true even though the track geometry obviously wasn't perfect - e.g., if you sighted down the straightaways, you could see that they weren't perfectly straight.

I compared Length-Width measurement and direct curb circumference taping again in 1989, on a different high school track (which also had permanent concrete curb). I don't seem to have preserved the data, but my recollection is that the agreement was again extremely close.

I conclude that the Length-Width measurement is very accurate, comparable to direct curb circumference taping, for tracks with the "standard" geometry of straightaways and semicircles at both ends.

Unfortunately, there are also "double bend" tracks, where each end of the track is a compound curve built with two different radii, resulting in a track with a somewhat more squarish shape. These are often used when it's desired to include a wider playing field, such as a soccer pitch, in the infield area. According to David Katz, it can be very difficult to tell by simple inspection that a track has double bend geometry instead of the standard geometry with semicircular ends. And if a track does have double bend geometry, the Length-Width method will significantly underestimate the track length.

The IAAF Track and Field Facilities Manual that can be downloaded from https://www.iaaf.org/download/...ition%20-%20Chapters includes diagrams (Figures 1.2.3b, 1.2.3c and 1.2.3d) showing dimensions of 400 meter tracks with three variations of the double bend geometry. From those dimensions, we can calculate that a Length-Width measurement would underestimate the track length by amounts ranging from around 5 to 10 meters.

From this, we conclude that, even if it can be difficult to distinguish a double bend track from a standard track by visual inspection, the difference should be readily apparent if we do a bike measurement (or other calibrated wheel measurement) in addition to Length-Width tape measurement, as those measurements will differ by at least 5 meters if it's a double bend track.

Now, my recommendations on certification where, based on previous discussion, it should be clear that we're certifying it as a "road" course, not a track.

First, since it's a road certification, we always have the option of measuring it by calibrated bike (or similar calibrated wheel method), just as we would measure any other road course. The only difference is that, if the track is uncurbed, we should measure/calculate it for an assumed running path 20 cm out from the inside edge (more on this later). As in any other bike measurement of a road course, the 1/1000 short course prevention factor would be used to ensure that the course is at least the stated distance.

If the track has a permanent curb suitable for direct taping of the curb circumference, this can provide greater accuracy and would allow use of a smaller SCPF (more on this later). Unfortunately, very few current tracks have a permanent curb of this type.

If the measurers wish to do Length-Width tape measurements, this can also provide greater accuracy than a wheel measurement, allowing use of a smaller SCPF. However, given the possibility that the track might have double bend geometry, we should never certify based only on Length-Width tape measurements. We should always require a wheel measurement in addition to the Length-Width tape measurement. Then, if the tape measurements and wheel measurements agree within a meter or so (for a 400 m track), we can take that as evidence that the track has standard geometry (with semicircular ends) and certify based on the tape measurements. If not, we'd have to certify based on the wheel measurements.

On use of SCPF: If certifying according to tape measurements (either direct curb taping or Length-Width method), the SCPF can be smaller than the 1/1000 used in normal road measurements. But an SCPF is definitely needed! All course certification and record keeping follows the principle that the course must not be shorter than advertised. When IAAF certifies a 400 m track, they specify a one-sided tolerance of 4 cm, meaning that its length must be between 400 m and 400.04 m (i.e., it can be up to 4 cm oversized but must not be shorter than 400 m). Thus, a track builder would aim for a measurement of about 400.02 m, to ensure it's within the window, given the accuracy of their measurements. RRTC has always used an SCPF for road course measurements, but curiously, when RRTC wrote certificates for tracks, we simply reported the raw results of tape measurements without any safety factor. This may have been done by analogy with calibration courses, but it's a false analogy. Nobody runs races on a calibration course. The only purpose of a calibration course is to calibrate a bike. Then, when we calibrate the bike, we apply the SCPF, so it gets incorporated in measured race courses. But people do run races on tracks, so when we certify a track (albeit as a "road" course), we must ensure it's at least the stated distance.

In a bike measurement, we apply the SCPF by multiplying the "constant" by 1.001. This has the effect of increasing the course length when laying out a course to a desired intended distance (such as 5 km). Or, when measuring the length of an existing fixed course, it reduces our stated result for the length of the course, below the result we would state without the SCPF. When measuring a track by steel tape, we must similarly reduce our stated result for the track length. But by how much?

With extreme care and ideal equipment, steel tape measurements can be accurate to better than 1 part in 10,000. Our measurements don't reach that standard, due to factors such as calibration error of the tapes and uncertainty in the temperatures used for temperature correction. It's often stated that "ordinary" steel taping should be good to 1 part in 5000. I'm not sure our measurements always reach even that standrd. But I'd be comfortable using a slightly bigger SCPF of 1/4000 for tape measurements of a track. Thus, for tape measurements of a 400 m track (by either Length-Width or direct circumference taping), the length written on the certificate should be 10 cm less than the original measurement result.

On 20 cm clearance for uncurbed tracks: Track rules state that the assumed running path is either 30 cm from the curb or 20 cm from a painted line defining an inside edge. For road course measuring, we normally specify only the 30 cm clearance. Historically, when Ted Corbitt sent letters in Sept 1982 introducing the SCPF and tighter SPR procedure, he said to measure 30 cm from curbs and 20 cm from uncurbed road edges (see one of Ted's letters at www.rrtc.net/SCPF_Adoption_1982.pdf). This was by analogy with the track rules. Then in 1985, when I was working with Ken Young and Pete Riegel on the first edition of Course Measurement Procedures, we decided it made no sense to keep specifying both 30 cm and 20 cm clearances for road measuring, especially since actual uncurbed road edges are nothing like painted lines on a track (they may be broken up, have dangerous drop-offs, etc.). But now, in the context of measuring on an uncurbed track, there is really a well-defined line marking the inside edge, and runners are really going to run closer than 30 cm from that line, so we really ought to measure/calculate at 20 cm. And, as pointed out previously in this thread, there's a huge difference between the lap distance at 20 cm and 30 cm -- about 63 cm, which is more than 1/1000 for a 400 m track.

As additional subtleties, even when measuring by bike, it's probably best to measure right at the inside edge, and then correct for the 20 cm clearance by calculation (by adding about 1.2566 m). To measure the proper path by bike, it's probably easier to walk the bike instead of riding it (Of course, if it's walked on the race course, it also needs to be walked on the calibration course). As one more point, if it's an uncurbed track, we'd need to decide exactly what defines the inside edge. If you want to use the painted line defining the inside edge of lane 1, that line would have to be coned during the race, and that would have to be written on the Certificate. The track surface probably extends some distance inside of that painted line. If the line won't be coned, we should assume that runners will use the entire track surface, so the assumed running path would be 20 cm out from the very inside edge of the available track surface.

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