New Handlebar Mounted Counter

Hi Kevin,
If the price will be around the hub mounted counters you can count me in.
Thanks Kevin.

Kevin,

Since you say some measurers have tested this device and all is good. That is really good.

I have heard that this type of device can have slippage in the counts. Hence, one must be very careful.

Please let me know if you would allow us to have at least two RRTC IAAF people to have a go at this. Do this by emailing me.

Sounds good. I would be interested in buying one and trying it.

What is the exact length of the cable? Last one I got from Oerths was a little short and the only configuration I can find where it works has the undesirable side effect of running the counter backwards.

Oscar Wagner
Johnson City, TN

quote:

Originally posted by Oscar Wagner:
What is the exact length of the cable? Last one I got from Oerths was a little short and the only configuration I can find where it works has the undesirable side effect of running the counter backwards.

Oscar Wagner
Johnson City, TN

Cables are 70 cm long.

Not sure about your counter running backwards. Veeder Root has counters that run counter clockwise, which the gear drive should be mounted on the right side of the wheel hub. Traditionally the gear drive is mounted on the left side of the wheel hub using a clockwise rotational counter.

Please add my name to the list of persons wanting to purchase one. Thanks.

I tested one for Kevin and measured 23 courses with it this summer. I really liked having the counter up where I could read it easily. Unfortunately my hybrid bike measures 80 cm from the axle to the handlebar. The cable had to be bent too severely to mount to the handlebar and I had to improvise a different mounting. The only issue that I had was the inherent lag in the cable and counter compared to my JR mounted on the axle and tied to a spoke. I had 12" of lag before the counter moved going from forward to revers or back. As long as you always take the lag out in the same direction, it is not an issue.

Looking at the mechanism, I don't see how you could get any slippage of counts without a bind in the counter. A bind that would most likely break the gears in the counter. Granted there are more working parts, and therefore more potential failure points.

Winston, I'm interested in how you configured your JR and Kevin's counter on your bike at the same time.

I just checked, and I think the 70 cm will work on my bike-- about 64 cm straight line distance.

Bob, I did not run a side by side test. I compared my JR counter and Kevin's individually over my home calibration course and found no difference.

There's another way to check for slippage in your counter system. The counter should record 23.23232323...(I think that's the number) counts per wheel revolution. Note the count on your counter when the valve stem is even with the fork. Go for a multi-mile bike ride, and when you return note the count again when the valve stem is even with the fork. Subtract to get the counts for your ride and divide that number by 23.2323232323... If the result is not VERY close to a whole number you've got a problem.

The 23.636363 trick only works if the big gear has 26 teeth and the small gear has 11 teeth.

Not all hub drives have this ratio.

Actually you don't need to know the number of counts per wheel revolution. Just go for a fairly long bike ride that ends with the valve stem in the same position as when you started. Then go for a second ride that is exactly the same number of counts. If your valve stem doesn't end up in the same place as at the start of that second ride, you've got a problem.

Mark, I like your second method better. Way to think it though to make it as simple as possible.

Just measured my old J-O cable at 28" mounted nut end to nut end.

How did you guys handle the 12" of lag when calibrating? That could translate to + or minus more than 3 JR counts at the end of each of the 4 calibration rides? Are you sure it is not building up tension and then breaking loose and overshooting a neutral internal cable-to-sheath tension?

Oscar Wagner
Johnson City, TN

Kevin, What is the gearing on this drive?
How many counts per kilometer does it generally render?
Given the cable length, is it long enough to allow for smooth bends?
From the picture it appears to be a tight bend near the handlebar mount. Is this correct or just a poor determination from the photo angle?
Can the drive be mounted so that the cable connection is in line with the bike fork or does it point parallel to the ground?
How much backlash occurs from backing up to going forward?
Have you lubricated the assembly or used it as supplied?

tmp_31073-20151116_230030-2021207390 by nfw4, on Flickr

tmp_31073-20151117_125942-1998020710 by nfw4, on Flickr

tmp_31073-20151119_084032-1878168260 by nfw4, on Flickr

I have checked the performance of Kevin's mechanical counter by operating it simultaneously with three electronic counters set up as revolution counters. Over trips totaling 25 miles, I stopped at intervals and compared the readings of the electronic counters with that derived from the mechanical counter by dividing the reading by 23.6364. Often the mechanical counter gave exactly the same reading as that of the electronic counters down to 0.01 rev and deviations were never more than 0.02 rev.

On one occasion , I measured a 5-km course for certification and found that all four meters agreed precisely at all stages of the operation. (With my 700 wheel the mechanical meter developed 18,172 cts/ml or 11,292cts/km.)

One of the electronic meters was a commercial counter and the other two were Protege 5 bicycle computers set up to count revolutions. The zero point on the wheel for one of the Proteges was set ahead by 0.2 rev, so that in the unlikely event that a spoke magnet accidentally stopped on a sensor and generated a spurious pulse, this would be detected as difference in meter readings. The lower reading or readings would then be used.

When going from forward to reverse, there is a lag of six inches before this movement is detected on the mechanical meter. However, this is of little consequence except for having to remember to take readings only after traveling forward for about a foot.

An initial attempt to mount the drive gear was thwarted because the diameter of the hole (8.2 mm) was too small for the wheel axel. My old Jones meter has a hole diameter of 10.0 mm and I assumed my axel had the same diameter. However after I drilled the drive gear hole to 10.0 mm, I found my axel had an unusual 9.0 mm diameter!

I did not like the bracket for mounting the count display to the handlebar, because it did not fit my particular handlebar too well and got in the way of my hand grip. Therefore I simply attached the cable sheath to the stem with an electrical tie. This had the advantage that it allowed the sheath to assume a smooth curve. No lubrication was necessary.

After testing for quite a long time, I disconnected the meter display and found that the cable was 4 mm too long. The metal flange on the sheath could not therefore be tightened against the black mounting body. This did not seem to affect measurements, but nonetheless I decided to correct this. It is very difficult to cut the cable, so I fashioned a spacer from the end of plastic tie (as shown in the bottom of the photograph) to fit just in front of the flange. However, this was not altogether satisfactory since the tightening nut barely engaged the threads. Kevin tells me he has a longer plastic connector for joining the cable to the drive on the meter display, and if this is used it will allow a spacer to be inserted at the display end and the metal flange to be tightened to the body.

Mechanical counters cannot compare to electronic counters in terms of easy mounting, superior display, and simplicity of operation from the use of fewer readings and calculations. Nevertheless, Kevin's modification has made the mechanical counter more efficient and less prone to erroneous readings.

I've been using one of Kevin's counters and have found it works very well. Mounting on handlebar presented no problems and created no kinks or sharp bends. Extra play in the gearing is not a big problem.

I'll try to give a more detailed report soon. But I've just finished measuring a marathon with it, and it's hard to beat the convenience of just glancing down at your handlebar.

I purchased a new bike recently. The handlebar on the new bike is a bit taller. The taller handlebar presented a bit of a problem to use my cable driven/handlebar counter.

On my old bike I was able to easily install the counter with the counter bracket facing out from the handlebar. With the taller handlebar the counter cable was just too tight. After messing around with it I discovered I could face the counter bracket inward toward the seat, which nicely allowed for the difference in height. I find it best to have the counter cable with smooth curved bends.

The second minor issue with the new bike was accommodating the hydraulic disc brake on the left side of the wheel hub. I’m using the same gear drive, but mounting it on the right side of the hub. I changed the counter model from a 745815 to a 745825, which spins counter clockwise. My cable driven/handlebar counter gear drive can be installed on either side of the wheel hub.

Have been using the Lucas Jones Cable Counter to recently measure 4 events. Found it easy to mount, flexible & runs smoothly. Real nice to be able to have the counter within an easy view, particularly in questionable light or busy traffic roadways.

Comparison counts on a calibration course were the same as the JR Counter.

Marcel, this is interesting as I see you have never submitted a course for Certification. I encourage you to measure and submit your work to your Regional Certifier.

Thanks for your comments about the counter.

Gene, being Canadian my applications for certification go to Athletics Canada

My update on Kevin's counter is that I've now measured 14 courses using it, including a couple marathons, a couple half marathons and a smattering of others. It is still running really well despite some nasty conditions like awful road surfaces in DC following winter freezing and thawing, and getting caked up with mud on the Frederick Fairgrounds horse track.

Occasionally as with other counters the gearing at the hub gets a little noisy from time to time and I find some oil quiets things down acceptably. On mine there is a slight ticking sound at the counter end (on the handlebar) that I can't quite figure out. It's slight and I can live with it.

I love having the counter right up close to my aging eyes, and I hope there is a way that a handlebar mount can be made available as an option for more measurers. But I understand there are economic considerations that make it a little tricky to produce on a large scale, especially when offering a choice between 6- and 5- digit counters. Maybe only offer one (I vote for 5 but would understand if the majority goes for 6).

I've lost track of how many counters I have. Is it 3 or 4? So I'm not likely to purchase another one. What about the possibility of converting an existing hub counter to a handlebar mounted one? Cost?

I have parts supply for 10 more complete units. Contact me if you are interested in a new unit.

Recently I rebuild another unit using a measurer’s old Veeder Root counter. The counter was from a 30 plus year old NYRRC built counter. With the Veeder Root counter cost being the biggest cost, rebuilding an old counter isn’t a bad idea. The only hang up is sometimes one or both of the counter mounting tabs have been removed. A little bit of wire can anchor the counter without the mounting tabs.

I've still got remnants of clay from the Frederick Half measurement.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Thurston:
My update on Kevin's counter is that I've now measured 14 courses using it, including a couple marathons, a couple half marathons and a smattering of others. It is still running really well despite some nasty conditions like awful road surfaces in DC following winter freezing and thawing, and getting caked up with mud on the Frederick Fairgrounds horse track.

Occasionally as with other counters the gearing at the hub gets a little noisy from time to time and I find some oil quiets things down acceptably. On mine there is a slight ticking sound at the counter end (on the handlebar) that I can't quite figure out. It's slight and I can live with it.

I love having the counter right up close to my aging eyes, and I hope there is a way that a handlebar mount can be made available as an option for more measurers. But I understand there are economic considerations that make it a little tricky to produce on a large scale, especially when offering a choice between 6- and 5- digit counters. Maybe only offer one (I vote for 5 but would understand if the majority goes for 6).

I concur that so far, Kevin's counter seems to work quite well. Having the numbers where they're easy to read makes a big difference for me.

Thanks, Kevin!

I just completed my first measurement with one of Kevin's counters which replaced my Paul Oerth counter. I am happy to say that it worked great. Not only is it safer not having to bend over the handlebars to view the counter, but it also eliminates some of the wobble making for a more accurate measurement. I enthusiastically recommend this counter.

Thanks Jack for your comments and others who posted earlier. Recently I have been hearing similar remarks about the handlebar mounted counter. I initially thought it was easier to read while mounted on the handlebar, but increased safety is certainly an added benefit. Keeping an eye on the counter and traffic is minimized, especially measuring on the roads with traffic. I haven’t really used a hub mounted counter in years, yet I’m sure wobble is lessened not having to look down to the wheel hub to read the counter.

I have another small number of handlebar mounted counters made up. The cost per unit is just $95 plus shipping.

As another one of those "seasoning" measurers, I am excited to hear of a handlebar-mounted counter. Consider me interested!

While on vacation on the sunny island of Aruba, I took advantage of some spare time to do a bit more rigorous testing on my cable driven counter. Why not try my counter out doing an underwater test while riding on sand? The test documentation was most difficult, but I managed using a dive slate with pencil. After drying off and calculating results I can say my cable driven counter performed great underwater as it does on dry roads!

I bought one of Kevin's counters last fall and have managed to measure, or do preliminary work, on a couple of courses since. So far it seems to be working fine and I see no evidence of slippage. My calibration counts are in the same rage that I got with the regular set up.

Kevin that's great. Hope you laid out a cal course so we can use it when we go to Aruba to measure underwater courses!

For the calibration course there is a giant brain coral at one end and yellow tube sponge at the other end. Look out for and don't touch the long-spined sea urchin.