Multiple listings for a single course

Random thoughts:

1. Give the course a generic name- one that describes the location and distance but uses neither of the event names.

2. Or somehow weave both of the event names into the course name.

3. This is one of the reasons for the little block that encourages race directors to use the certification code. If the code is on the race info, runners can go directly to the website and search on the certification code.

I measured a 5 km course recently in New Haven and titled it "East Rock 5 km" denoting its location. When I sent it to the RDs, they responded asking me to changed the name to "Run for Refugees 5K." I made a web version of the map w/ that name for them to post on their website, but kept the other name for the official cert.

Since they're the ones paying the bill, I figured keep them somewhat happy.

As Jay suggests, race directors could use the certification code on their race info, but then when runners went to that course on the USATF site, they would see a different race name and probably think there was some mistake. Including the names of both races in the race name spot is also a good idea, but I'm also thinking about the situation where a race wants to use an existing certified course.

Most races would like to have their race name listed along with the website listing of the course. Is there really any fundamental issue with having the same course appear more than once on the website with two different race names? The racing public probably wouldn't even be aware when they see them on the website that the Podunk Labor Day 5k and the Poduck Jingle Bell 5k are actually the some course, but does that matter? There could be a note somewhere in the listing that says the course is the same as MI05001SH, for those who care.

The USATF could charge some small fee for adding the listing to the website. The state certifier could also charge a small fee for his trouble.

I just see this as an easy and inexpensive way for a small race to use an accurately measured course for their race.

As I understand it, the search engine needs to have a course number tied to it. So both races would need a certificate, but could share the same map and certification number.

PO08001MN, the Podunk Chicken Festival 5k, and PO08001MN, the Podunk Jingle Jog 5k, for instance.

Searching by course number would bring up both races; no biggie as they share the same course. A search by Podunk Chicken Festival would yield only one map.

So a small charge for an extra cert should do the trick. How the two RD's split the cost of measurement is a matter for them to fight over.

On the other hand, we certify courses, not races.

Can o' Worms.

Stu hit the nail on the head - courses are certified, not races. Many races use the same course.

On my Website (RaceMeasure.com) I am trying to list every race that uses a certified course. In the course of my research, I have found that many races put on by running clubs use the same course. The maps normally have the name of the race that paid for the certification. (I guess that could be viewed as a "perq" of having a course certified. It may steer runners to their event.) If a runner has seen a race's brochure, there is normally a description of the Start, and sometimes the course. If a runner reads that (not a good assumption), they can then see that the map with another name on it is actually the course they will be running. But, that takes a bit of thought, which many people don't do.

If a course is starting/finishing at a school/church/business, it could be named for the event. If the course is in a park, or other easily-accessible area for other events, then maybe we should name the course generically.

I recently had a race have a course certified in a public park, but, since I know it will be used for many races, I named it generically. I put the race's name on the map I sent to them, but the certification map has the generic name on it. This way, 20 different races can use the course, and each one can refer to the generic map.

If I have a race that uses someone else's course, should I expect the map to have my name on it? No. If I pay for a certification, then maybe I should expect my name on the course. But, as discussed earlier in this forum, the course is on public streets, and no one "owns" the course. We can tactfully explain that to race directors.

One course, one name, in my opinion. Don't need to make more work for Stu.

I don't see this as an issue of whether the course is certified, or the race is certified, or the course is certified twice, or whatever.

It's just an issue of how we list the course on the website.

Mark,

If we have a race name of Podunk 5k on a map, and list another course as having the same course and cert number, but the race is called Mombo 5k, the folks that are looking for the Mombo 5k map may think they have the incorrect map, even when they see the "correct" cert number. It would confuse many people, I am afraid.

Then, I think the responsibility would fall on the Race Director to note somewhere that the Cert # is what it is, and the course name is Podunk 5k.

If the Mombo 5k wants a map posted on the USATF site with their name on the course, then they would pay their measurer to create a map with Mombo 5k as the name, then the measurer would submit the map and currency to the certifier for submission to Stu.

As long as the certifier and Stu are not posting the map gratis, then I think everyone except the race director that paid for the initial certification would be content.

First, I agree with Stu.

If a race wants to use another's certified course, hence it's not our problem. If they want their own name so it shows on the web site then they must follow the procedure for getting their course measured and certified. This is a little bit much, but I don't see any way around that issue.

Sorry, but Stu had enougb to do without making his job more difficult. Let these people pay for a new course.

quote:

If the Mombo 5k wants a map posted on the USATF site with their name on the course, then they would pay their measurer to create a map with Mombo 5k as the name, then the measurer would submit the map and currency to the certifier for submission to Stu.

As long as the certifier and Stu are not posting the map gratis, then I think everyone except the race director that paid for the initial certification would be content.

Actually this is what I was thinking of originally. Then it is just between the state certifier and the race directors. A "new" map is created that is identical except that it has a different certification number and race name on it.

Agreed:

quote:

Stu hit the nail on the head - courses are certified, not races. Many races use the same course.

That's why I have been arguing for people to name the race course with the location and distance, not the race name.

Second, we often do a race day, user friendly version of the course map, and that can have any name you like on it.

It's the distance that is certified, not the event. We have a lot of races around here on the same course.

We discourage a second certification of the same course becuase the second measurer will put down marks that are in similar but not always the same location. This leads to confusion and people using the wrong marks.

TRY NOT TO LAY OUT A SECOND COURSE ON TOP OF AN EXISTING ONE, it only leads to confusion.

Never have I had a runner come up to me and tell me that the name on the course map is not the same as the even name. If a runner looks up the course number a quick examination of the MAP shows what the course is. That's the check, did we start on the right mark and finish on the right finish line?

Any runner who knows whats happening, and is keen enough to look up a course map, is smart enough to figure out if the course and location match, and KNOWS that the course name could be anything and that it is the MAP that counts, not the name.

We have races that use the same course and races that change name but we NEVER change the name of the certified course to match the flavor of the day.

Honestly I don't think that most races should be giving out the certified course map to the general runner because in most cases the map is cramped and not very clear. Make a race day map for end users and just put a note on it that the full certified course is number xxxxxx and the measurement map is available on line.

Just have a few of the certified courses on hand for runners who really want to examine the certificate and for the course staff to make sure they are using the correct marks.

On the official certification we could do away with course names altogether, and add something useful like the zip code and Lat and Long of the start.

In the end zip and Lat/Long would make locating available courses a simpler process because the location of both can be looked up and distance from a known point calculated. I would much prefer to be able to look up all courses within 10 miles of xxxxxx rather than by the name that the race was called eight years and three race directors prior.

Often I am asked if there is a 5K course in .... or am asked to do a 5K course in ..... only to find out that one already exists.

One of our local parks has no fewer than 10 certified courses and a bunch of uncertified ones, or other marks from triathlons and such. We need to keep overlapping marks to a minimum and that means reusing existing courses. Funny enough runners like this, because they can compare times between the two.

Stupid idea:

quote:

A "new" map is created that is identical except that it has a different certification number and race name on it.

And what pray tell is the expiry date of the 'new' course? Does it get the old course date or a new one? And why? (Show all your work)

If the course is replaced then how do you make sure both courses are replaced? What happens to the second cert when the first one is replaced? (How exactly does this work and who does it?)

The expiration date is 10 years from when the course was first measured, of course.

Podunk Chicken Festival MI08001SH
Podunk Jingle Jog MI08002SH

Podunk Chicken Festival decides to use a new course for their race, so the new course replaces MI08001SH. MI08002SH is not replaced because the Podunk Jingle Jog still uses the same course. What's the problem? Nobody has to do anything they don't already do.

Duane,

I think you got your threads crossed. This one's about multiple listings for the same course, not about putting the website on the map.

Right. I just deleted my posts that didn't go with this thread. Sorry about that.