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This discussion was started in another thread, but the title of that thread has nothing to do with this topic, so I am starting a new one that will be easy to find in the future.

People might want to repeat what they have said in the other thread here to make it complete. You could even just copy and paste.
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My thoughts on this topic are:

First, I think we can all agree that great strides in this area have already been made in the past few years. Thanks to contributions made by Gene, Justin, Bob, and others, we are now able to submit color maps, we have a fill-in PDF application, and the turn-around time from submission of a certificate to its appearance on the USATF website is almost always less than a day. Thanks for your efforts! But every good organization is always looking to improve its processes, so I think it's good to have this discussion.

Second, while the intent is good, it doesn't really mean much to say simply that we should or should not automate the process. Automate what? What specific parts of the process would benefit from some type of automation. For example, is it really any easier for a measurer to fill in an online form than it is for him/her to complete a fill-in PDF form? When discussing this idea we need to talk about specific parts of the process that slow us down, how automation would help speed that up, and how specifically we might be able to automate that particular part.
I've been using an Excel sheet made to look like the paper form since the 90's that does some of the math for me. I plug in information while I'm on the course measuring, so having an online form wouldn't be desirable for me.

What I started, but never had time to finish, was a measuring app. Something that would capture information to make the documentation (and maps) more complete. The original version of it was my same spreadsheet running on a HP iPAC (no longer in existence). Stop, key in your count, and have it auto-capture the GPS location at the same time. It would allow the certifier to look at the track, speed the mapping process, and give a good sanity check.

NO, I'm not talking about measuring courses using GPS. I'm talking about supplementing the Jones counter information with GPS and capturing the information to complete the form (and ideally generating the form from that information).
Mark's point is a good one, to focus on the specific parts of the process. And, referring back to a post from Toni Youngman, it may be a good thing to slow things down, especially for novice measurers and maybe for all of us.

I agree with Keith that getting waypoints as you measure is a great help. They help you see where points are from an "eye in the sky". But you have to be vigilant as they tend to be off by small and sometimes large amounts.

Mark I wonder if you can just provide a link to the other discussion so we don't have to paste in old posts?
I see three somewhat independent parts of the process that might benefit from automation.

1) The measurement process itself.

2) The measurer's submission of the application to the certifier.

3) The certifier's submission of the certificate to the vice-chair, chair, and registrar.

I think Keith's post is mostly about #1, although I might be missing something. He definitely offers some good ideas. I also take waypoints for mile marks. Often when I measure a course I'm doing it in segments, so determining the locations of the mile marks isn't straight-forward. After I get waypoints for them I come home, upload them to google earth, and measure between mile marks on GE just as a sanity check on their locations.
Regarding #2 above, I think it would be helpful to have an excel version of the application. I know many certifiers, including myself, have provided an excel version to their measurers, but it would be good to have a standard version that is available on the USATF website.

The main advantage of this would be calculation checking. Pre and post calibration is pretty standard, so it would be easy to set up an excel sheet to calculate the correct constant from the counts of the cal rides. This is something I always check, so it would save a bit of time if the application checks that for me.

Of course the data from the course measurement is less standard. But I think we could provide an excel sheet that could be used for the case when the measurement is just a standard start to finish or finish to start measurement. If that's not the case then the measurer could be told to create his own spreadsheet or PDF file that describes his process and gives his numbers.
I appreciate this discussion, and I like your thoughts, Mark.

Our automated submission process would have all the calculation data-checking built into the software. Drop/Sep exceeds the limits for records? The measurer knows this as soon as he/she enters it. Cal numbers too far out of bounds? Data is rejected; measurer may have to re-measure. Measurements do not qualify for the .08% standard? Measurer can go no further, must re-measure.

Map checkoffs: measurer must check off every radio button corresponding to map requirements: cert. #, north arrow, etc.

The application data has all its fields set to "required", so that the measurer must enter all the necessary data in order to proceed.

The system uploads the electronic map and converts it to whatever format we desire (order something cheap on VistaPrint with your logo to see how effortless this upload process with current web programming is).

The measurer completes his/her submission by paying the fee via PayPal right there.

The system is programmed to then send an email to the state certifier that a new application awaits. The certifier accepts or rejects the work and issues a cert. # as appropriate, from the state database kept online. He/she submits it, along with the PayPal fee, to the Regional. The process is repeated for this next level, and the certificate is issued. Gene gets an email that a new certification is ready for final review and posting. Gene approves/rejects, and the approved map & certificate are automatically uploaded to our server.

I do not know how much this programming might cost. It will not be trivial but it employs well-trodden territory in the world of web programming to accomplish all of this and more. As a first step, we could create a basic design for the system and then put out a few RFIs. This could give us a ballpark on the scope of work and the required investment. We could then make an informed choice about whether to do as we do now, or devise a plan for eventual implementation.

Windmill fully tilted at for today - Jordan OUT.
First, we have asked our Certifiers about using an auto-fil cerrtifite. Guess what? 99% are not interested. I really don't know why, but this is what it is. Do you really think most measurers would want to do this.

Next, a measurer really doesn't care about the drop/separation. Yes, he does care about the .08%.

Next, PayPal is great, but you would be surprised how many Certifiers don't want to go there. I would think this would be the case with measurers.

Many measurers use snail mail. We they be required to go this route. Lot's of people are not very good with computers.

As I said before, there is no "IT" person with USATF and I don't see this happening in the near future. I also, feel there is little to gain by going this route.
Lyman, many of your ideas are good, but I think they can all be done with an excel form of the application. Conditional formatting can be used to indicate a value is out of range or fields are not completed, etc. Will measurers find it easier to fill out a web-based form than they would to fill out an excel sheet?

For the map submission, the formatting is done after the certifier adds the number, so it wouldn't be done when the measurer submits. It would be useful to have a tool that automatically converted a PDF file to a PNG file that met our requirements. I think that would probably take the form of a GIMP script rather than an online tool.

As others have mentioned, there is an excel version of the certificate form that several of us use. It does many of the needed calculations and conversions automatically, and also provides a way to keep previously submitted measurer and RD names and addresses so they can be accessed as drop down menus if their info is needed in future certifications.
I have been advocating for online submission for years, but starting with the other end of the submission.

I had envisioned the first step being the Certifier completing an online cert form, then pushing the "Submit" button. That would trigger an email to both the Vice-chair, and the Registrar. This way, if the VC was out of town, the Registrar would be able to review in a timely manner. The VC would click "Reviewed" when they were done, which would trigger an email to the Registrar, informing of the new cert ready for upload.

When the cert had been reviewed by the VC and accepted by the Registrar, the Registrar would click "Accepted", which would upload the cert, and update the online database. This final step is a vast difference than what happens now, and would require a revamp of the USATF database and map system. That is the big hurdle right now.

However, it recently dawned on me that one of the benefits of using the Excel workbook as a Certifier is the ability to store and quickly re-use measurer info and also race contact info. Doing this online would necessitate the USATF db capturing all measurer and race contact info for the entire country. Yes, the db can handle it, but one of the benefits of storing that info is so we don't have permutations of the measurer name, such as Ken/Kenny/Kenneth or Bob/Rob/Robert. For measurers, this is a great tool. For all of the nationwide race contacts, though, it becomes cumbersome sorting through all the "Jeff"s, for instance, to find the correct person from the list. Now, it would likely take less of the Certifier's time to type the race contact's info into the form, than to pick from a huge list. As a certifier, this just made automation more time-consuming than using my own Excel form with just my own state's list of race contacts.

Further, the current system sends certs from the Certifier to the VC via email, or snail mail. Some certifiers still aren't digital, although those are fewer each year. We will have all certs submitted to the Certifier via email, soon. The new system will have to incorporate a "Reject" feature, so that the VC or Registrar can reject a submission online, which would notify the Certifier of the rejection. The Certifier would then fix the problem and re-enter all cert info to resubmit, which may (depending on design) issue a new certificate number. Would the old number get re-used? If not, there would be a gap in the sequence, which is not acceptable. In the interest of submitting certs to the Registrar in sequence, this reject process would likely create a gap in submissions, even if the old number was still used.

My point of all of this is, over the past few years as I have been working through this, from identifying the scope of the project, through pseudo-coding, I have found one recurring hurdle. When identifying how an entry into a field will be handled, it comes down to "it depends". We have too many circumstances where an answer is not cut-and-dried, and may take some additional communication between parties, to come to an acceptable resolution. If the VC initially rejects a cert, clicks "Reject", then the certifier explains why that was entered, the cert number will have been rejected. With everything automated, that is not acceptable.

So, I have decided that our process is so unique, and while most submissions follow a defined process, not all courses/certs fit neatly into an automated process. If we are going to automate, we don't want to have back-doors built in so the Registrar can override some aspect. That is then putting burden back on the Registrar, defeating the purpose of automation.

I am not going to pursue automation until we have a large consensus that we are ready to automate. I am willing to listen to suggestions, but I will be on the side of shooting down all ideas, in the name of being sure that when we are ready to begin, we have covered all of the potential hurdles. Once we have overcome all hurdles, we can then begin designing a system, starting at the "submission to Registrar" stage of the process.
With data validation in Excel if you type in a value, like a measurer's name, and it matches an entry in the validation list, it will allow it. Then the measurer's address would be filled in on the form. Just mentioning this because it wouldn't really be a problem that a certifier would have to try to find the measurer in a long list.

I agree that the place to start for an automatic online submission would be from certifier to VC and Registrar, not at the other end of the process.

But I do think there would be some value in creating a standard excel and/or OpenOffice spreadsheet version of the application. This wouldn't really be "automation." Just a more functional application.
I have posted an Excel version of the application on my Website for years. It could now be a bit dated, as I don't recall if there have been changes in format in the last 5 years. Many measurers have downloaded it, but some of the Colorado, Arizona, and Idaho measurers I suggested it to, said they don't/won't use Excel. So, they hand-wrote on a printed application, and mail them in. There are some that won't use available technology.
I really didn't want to respond anymore, but I have a couple of questions.

1. How does an online application make it better.

2. Do you really think most would go there? Our Certfiers aren't even interested in using the auto-fill certificate.

3. We just redid the application to make it
easier for our Certifier to fill in the certificate.

Yes, if used an online application would be nice. However, what is done now works fine.

If one wants to make this up, please do so and make it in the same order as our present application. Send it to me and I will forward it to Bob for his input.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Neal:
I think Keith's post is mostly about #1, although I might be missing something.

Actually my suggestions are for #1 and #2, since doing the computations in an "automated form" reduces the chance of errors during measurement and also speeds the completion (and thus submission) of the form to the certifier.

In addition, a more easily verifiable submission to the certifier eases their workload. You could have the app verify that required values were there and not allow submission without certain components. No way to have it do 100% of the cases, so I'm not suggesting replacing the process with an app or form, but adding an automated process that supplements the existing process to address the 80/20 cases so the routine situations are less burdensome for both the measurer and the certifier.

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