I have moved several posts from the end of one thread to this new one because they deviated from the original topic of the thread.
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quote:Originally posted by Guido Brothers:
Duane, I'll give you that USATF maintaining the course certification program is a benefit. However, I seriously doubt that a measurer has ever been denied a measuring job based on USATF membership.
As far as "making money" from measuring goes, I don't look at measuring as an income stream, more like a hobby that pays a little. The hourly rate realized by measurers may actually qualify as a disadvantage of USATF maintaining the certification program. I don't think the majority of measurers do it solely for the income. Maybe you could say that tangible benefit of USATF maintaining the certification program is that it provides me a hobby that costs way less than golf. All this is reaching and would never alone convince someone to join USATF.
Guido, any chance you are charging too little for your good work? I know at least one of us out here who makes a good hourly rate doing this work. Good, as in a ~ $90K annual rate if he/she were doing it full time. I still aspire to this level, but I am slowly getting there as I learn to create maps more efficiently. I realize rates will vary around the country and from measurer to measurer. In the D.C. area, $450.00 is standard for a 5K when given fully-permitted turn-by-turn course directions to work with.
I'm moving to DC! The cheap Yankee RD's up here in New England often squawk about $150 for a 5k!
Count me in that move to DC. I used to charge $150 for a 5k but now I base my fees on 25% less than Duane charges. And I need to get my map making hours down also.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Gerweck:
I'm moving to DC! The cheap Yankee RD's up here in New England often squawk about $150 for a 5k!
Many of them in this region would, too, Jim. I figure they are going to clutch their chests just the same when they hear the price whether it is $150 or $450, so I go with the higher figure. I mean, come on, these events are charging entrants anywhere from $25 to $50 to run their race. This means that their $450.00 certification costs them less than two entry fees per year. If they do not believe it is worth this modest investment, then I may not care to work with them - this can be the type of client that will take forever to pay their bill, anyway. They do not perceive the value.
I have done certifications on the cheap when I felt like volunteering for a particular cause. But, not so much any more. If a particular charity wants me to make a donation, I ask that they keep that separate. I do not know of any races around here that are getting T-shirts or porta-potties donated. My personal belief is that I and many of us out here produce a product that is at least as valuable as a handful of porta-potties, which is what you get for $450.00 around these parts. Many races have men's bushes, but I have never heard of any that have an ersatz certification.
Jim, I have seen your work. Knowing something about what a skilled measurer you are, it seems to me you are donating a large portion of the time you spend on certification if you are charging anything less - IMHO. I do not judge anyone for what they charge. Hobby or not, there is a tangible value to what we do, though. I feel it lessens the sense of that value when we charge less than a market rate.
Race personnel around the D.C. region for the most part understand that they can count on recouping the investment in certification via the additional entrants they attract in the very first year after certification with this designation. Most competitive runners I know rarely if ever run non-certified courses. The Runner Rankings in the local running publication will not consider any performances on un-certified courses.
I understand and I appreciate the genesis of course certification as practiced by Ted Corbitt and many of the veteran certifiers and measurers on this forum. We did this as a kind of a public service as much as anything else. There was a lot of altruism motivating this work. I am proud to be a part of a group that can boast such a proud legacy. No doubt the running and racing world has benefited immensely from this work. I believe it is fair to ask if running would be as popular today without the benefit of course certification.
There are a lot of new races coming on the scene everywhere I look. In recent years, we have seen a second Running Boom. Runners World ran an article recently about the fact that some cities are now placing a cap on the number of race permits they will issue, so high is the demand for new events. Certainly that is the case in Washington, D.C. These restrictions have come about mainly because of the proliferation of events and the strain on traffic in these cities.
With the concomitant demand for races, there is a fair amount of certification work in many parts of our country. I am in the midst of doing several at this moment, with more to come. I know Bob Thurston handles as much of this kind of work as could be expected of anyone who holds (another) full-time job. The gist of my opinion on certification fees is that demand is strong and prices are mostly low, and that certification tends to be price inelastic. If we allow Adam Smith economics to operate, prices must rise - at least where it is anything less than a couple of entry fees or so a year, depending on the race distance. I believe we better convey the value of our work and we project a higher-quality image when we charge a fee which appropriately represents this value.
While I agree that measurers should charge what the market will bear, I also believe that many race directors don't understand the value of certification. These latter race directors simply don't have their courses certified. The lower the price of certification, the more of this second group of non-technical, unbelieving, probably non-runner, race directors will get their courses certified. Jim is right on when he notes the New England penchant for tight-fistedness.
That sort of surprises me about New England. My brother lives in Warwick R.I. and the golf courses to not have a problem charging a lot.
I paid $60 to play 18 holes riding and here in Ohio it is $30 a the most.
I paid $60 to play 18 holes riding and here in Ohio it is $30 a the most.
quote:Originally posted by Guido Brothers:
While I agree that measurers should charge what the market will bear, I also believe that many race directors don't understand the value of certification. These latter race directors simply don't have their courses certified. The lower the price of certification, the more of this second group of non-technical, unbelieving, probably non-runner, race directors will get their courses certified. Jim is right on when he notes the New England penchant for tight-fistedness.
My response to this is twofold: 1.If they do not recognize the value of certification at $450.00, what makes them recognize it at $150.00 - or as J.A. puts it, less than a threesome pays for a round of golf in your area? 2. We need to educate them on the value. I claim that most any race will get enough additional registrants when they certify their course to more than cover the $450.00 fee for a 5K.
I send them a link from my web site explaining this value, and I back it up by linking to the RRTC page on Why Certify. They still do not see the value of the investment? Around here, I can rely on some of this race's participants complaining to the R.D. This is how some certification business comes to me.
Lyman, you're a slacker! 
"Several" courses in-process. Maybe your prices are too high - I have 12 in the hopper that need to be completed by the end of May, for the latest. Some 5ks, 4 half-marathons. You need to get out there and hustle-up some work.
All said in good humor.
"Several" courses in-process. Maybe your prices are too high - I have 12 in the hopper that need to be completed by the end of May, for the latest. Some 5ks, 4 half-marathons. You need to get out there and hustle-up some work.All said in good humor.
quote:Originally posted by Duane Russell:
Lyman, you're a slacker!
All said in good humor.
12 measurements by the end of May?
Maybe you are too low? (Joking). How many of these clients would decline to get their courses measured if your rates were 10% or 15% higher?
Guidos have a good point - some race directors decided a while ago they would not pay for certification. To get more courses certified, you would have to reach those race directors, and convince them it is in their benefit to certify their courses. The challenge is reaching them.
If you could convince them that they would gain more runners each year than it costs to certify a course, they would likely do it. Short of sending a compelling email to the race director, though, I don't see how you can reach the majority of them. It has to be compelling, as they will start to read it, and if they are not intrigued in the first couple of sentences, they will delete the email.
I would imagine that only someone pursuing course measurement as a full-time endeavor would have the time to contact that many race directors. Since I know of no full-timers (wouldn't that be a great gig?), I don't foresee these race directors being "sold" on the value of course certification. They will continue to use non-certified courses until they lose enough runners, then find out why the runners are leaving. I also don't believe there is a critical-mass of runners who won't run non-certified courses.
It will be an uphill battle to have even 50% of courses in any area certified. We have a long way to go.
If you could convince them that they would gain more runners each year than it costs to certify a course, they would likely do it. Short of sending a compelling email to the race director, though, I don't see how you can reach the majority of them. It has to be compelling, as they will start to read it, and if they are not intrigued in the first couple of sentences, they will delete the email.
I would imagine that only someone pursuing course measurement as a full-time endeavor would have the time to contact that many race directors. Since I know of no full-timers (wouldn't that be a great gig?), I don't foresee these race directors being "sold" on the value of course certification. They will continue to use non-certified courses until they lose enough runners, then find out why the runners are leaving. I also don't believe there is a critical-mass of runners who won't run non-certified courses.
It will be an uphill battle to have even 50% of courses in any area certified. We have a long way to go.
I raised my prices by 10% at the beginning of 2012. I will likely raise them again in 2014. I don't want to raise them too much, too fast. That would not be good P.R.
Also, winter weather keeps me from measuring courses as soon as I receive them. We just got snow yesterday, so that kills measuring for at least the next few days.
Also, winter weather keeps me from measuring courses as soon as I receive them. We just got snow yesterday, so that kills measuring for at least the next few days.
In the D.C. area, Bob Thurston and I have excellent support from the major running specialty stores. He works with one leading chain, and I work with the other. These chains actually require all the races they support to get their courses certified.
In the D.C. area, Bob Thurston, John Sissala and a couple others have done such a good job certifying courses over the decades that no event deigning to take itself seriously would think of conducting its race on an uncertified course. Most races of 500 or more participants puts out a stack of copies of course maps at packet pickups and on race day. It is just an expectation around here. I see no reason why it should not be this way in any metropolitan area.
I do not reach out to RDs at all. They come to me. And to Bob. When I give them my fee and then I think I am hearing muffled choking sounds, I go into the "less than 2 entry fees per year and increased registrations" spiel. this seems to be effective. Over the years, I would say about 10% or so of RDs I have this discussion with decline certification.
Races have lots of slow runners these days. Many of these people are justifiably proud of going from the couch to a 5K. When they run their second 5K after losing more weight and training hard, and run a slower time on an easier course, they get confused or even upset. When they find out that their first 5K was not certified, then they have to wipe that glorious first race off their list of P.R.s. Runners these days spend a ton 'o bucks on races, GPS watches, training programs, software, etc. Runners of all types and speeds. Most of these people appreciate an accurate course. In MCRRC in Maryland, a poll of the membership years ago confirmed this.
If the average runner were not interested in distance accuracy, why would they be investing in this gear? Why would some manufacturers brag that their Gizmotic X-49B watch will record and map their running distance "precisely" if there were little concern about accurate courses?
My point about raising prices is that you would probably lose no customers. You are dealing with directors who already understand the value and would not think of conducting their race on an uncertified course.
In the D.C. area, Bob Thurston, John Sissala and a couple others have done such a good job certifying courses over the decades that no event deigning to take itself seriously would think of conducting its race on an uncertified course. Most races of 500 or more participants puts out a stack of copies of course maps at packet pickups and on race day. It is just an expectation around here. I see no reason why it should not be this way in any metropolitan area.
I do not reach out to RDs at all. They come to me. And to Bob. When I give them my fee and then I think I am hearing muffled choking sounds, I go into the "less than 2 entry fees per year and increased registrations" spiel. this seems to be effective. Over the years, I would say about 10% or so of RDs I have this discussion with decline certification.
Races have lots of slow runners these days. Many of these people are justifiably proud of going from the couch to a 5K. When they run their second 5K after losing more weight and training hard, and run a slower time on an easier course, they get confused or even upset. When they find out that their first 5K was not certified, then they have to wipe that glorious first race off their list of P.R.s. Runners these days spend a ton 'o bucks on races, GPS watches, training programs, software, etc. Runners of all types and speeds. Most of these people appreciate an accurate course. In MCRRC in Maryland, a poll of the membership years ago confirmed this.
If the average runner were not interested in distance accuracy, why would they be investing in this gear? Why would some manufacturers brag that their Gizmotic X-49B watch will record and map their running distance "precisely" if there were little concern about accurate courses?
My point about raising prices is that you would probably lose no customers. You are dealing with directors who already understand the value and would not think of conducting their race on an uncertified course.
Just did some math regarding full-time measurement. To make $90k a year at my rates, I could do a breakdown of:
75 5k courses
20 10k courses
20 Half-marathons
20 Marathons
That's about 4 5ks a week, and one each of the rest every-other week. One would have to do some traveling to have that many courses, I believe. Maybe if I retire, I can do this full-time, and travel around the country. Great way to see the countryside! Pull my trailer, measure courses. But, other measurers would get upset if I solicited business in their neighborhood. Not a good way to make friends.
75 5k courses
20 10k courses
20 Half-marathons
20 Marathons
That's about 4 5ks a week, and one each of the rest every-other week. One would have to do some traveling to have that many courses, I believe. Maybe if I retire, I can do this full-time, and travel around the country. Great way to see the countryside! Pull my trailer, measure courses. But, other measurers would get upset if I solicited business in their neighborhood. Not a good way to make friends.
I guess out here in the Pacific Northwest we depend too much on relationships. There is a local race director that I have done work for over the past 25 years or so. I now charge him $350 for anything from a 5km to a 15km course and $50 of that goes to my mapmaker. $650 for a half marathon, and $850 for a full marathon (including AIMS certification). Of course with that comes the "will you take a look at this proposed change to the course"...and "can you lay out the mile marks for the course you measured 4 years ago" requests that I do for free. Now that I'm an old retired guy, I don't really like to get up early in the morning, especially on a weekend, so perhaps I should start charging a "sleep deprivation" fee?
The various rates charged around the country indicates varying market rates, just like food and housing. Lee charges more than I do for a 5k, but less for everything else. Much less in the case of half and marathon courses.
I suppose that being retired makes a difference. I have to justify my time on weekends by making it financially beneficial. I don't get up early on weekends at someone else's behest for nothing.
I suppose that being retired makes a difference. I have to justify my time on weekends by making it financially beneficial. I don't get up early on weekends at someone else's behest for nothing.
quote:Originally posted by Duane Russell:
Just did some math regarding full-time measurement. To make $90k a year at my rates, I could do a breakdown of:
75 5k courses
20 10k courses
20 Half-marathons
20 Marathons
That's about 4 5ks a week, and one each of the rest every-other week. One would have to do some traveling to have that many courses, I believe. Maybe if I retire, I can do this full-time, and travel around the country. Great way to see the countryside! Pull my trailer, measure courses. But, other measurers would get upset if I solicited business in their neighborhood. Not a good way to make friends.
So - obviously, you are not charging enough
quote:Originally posted by Duane Russell:
Just did some math regarding full-time measurement. To make $90k a year at my rates, I could do a breakdown of:
75 5k courses
20 10k courses
20 Half-marathons
20 Marathons
That's about 4 5ks a week, and one each of the rest every-other week. One would have to do some traveling to have that many courses, I believe. Maybe if I retire, I can do this full-time, and travel around the country. Great way to see the countryside! Pull my trailer, measure courses. But, other measurers would get upset if I solicited business in their neighborhood. Not a good way to make friends.
I've been on the "giving" and "receiving" end of the "charge too much so I'll call another measurer" phone call/e-mail. Occasionally I'll drop the other measurer an e-mail, just to make certain everything is kosher.
What measurers charge is their own business. Simultaneously, I have to say I am repulsed at RDs who shop around for the cheapest deal, because we are mostly dirt cheap already, in my view. I am not an advocate of price fixing, as if that would be possible anyway. Yet, as demand for what we do seems strong in most areas of the country, I see no reason to work for little or essentially nothing, even if certifying is just a hobby and a good reason to get in a little biking.
Twice this past week, I had to politely explain to clients that I was hired as a professional to do a job, not recruited as a volunteer or solicited as a donor. Maybe I will find a way to demonstrate the growth in annual race fields for certified course events post-certification for some of these penny-pinchers.
I am actually blessed to work with some savvy RDs, too. Just today, one large race RD was picking my brain a little about the certification process. When I explained the .0008 difference standard, he was flabbergasted. He had no idea how exacting, therefore reliable, the process is. He felt grateful that I was charging him only $600.00 to certify his 10K.
Twice this past week, I had to politely explain to clients that I was hired as a professional to do a job, not recruited as a volunteer or solicited as a donor. Maybe I will find a way to demonstrate the growth in annual race fields for certified course events post-certification for some of these penny-pinchers.
I am actually blessed to work with some savvy RDs, too. Just today, one large race RD was picking my brain a little about the certification process. When I explained the .0008 difference standard, he was flabbergasted. He had no idea how exacting, therefore reliable, the process is. He felt grateful that I was charging him only $600.00 to certify his 10K.