Some Correspondence on this subjectTo All,
It's pretty simple, I think. If a map can be drawn so that a complete stranger, without help, can follow the route and stay within its boundaries, there seems little reason why it cannot be certified.
You would get more input to this if you put it on the Course Measurement Bulletin Board.
https://measure.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x A thread has already started, but if you are really interested in getting opinions you should opt for greater exposure.
Best, Pete
In a message dated 3/2/2007 1:38:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rjfitz@worldpath.net writes:
Steve, Justin,
I tend to agree that each course should be judged on its merits. However, the restriction was stated as a matter of policy. As it turned out, the course that prompted my question could not even be measured,
because bicycles were prohibited on the trail. At that point I didn't pursue the matter further.
I too have measured sections of road courses that are run on trails. All of these were well defined and I'm confident that the course could be reliably laid out year after year. However, I've never measured/certified a course that was completely run on a trail from start to finish. The start and finish have always been either on a road or parking lot. I'm not sure if that's a distinction.
Pete, Can you shed some light?
When I look at the definition of a course in the USATF bylaws (Governance Manual - Section III - Regulation 6) it appears to allow courses run over paths, grass, gravel, dirt, etc.
Ron
Steve Vaitones wrote:
I'd say that one can't make a blanket statement on not certifying a trail course.
There are off-road courses that can easily be delineated and followed - for example, a former railbed and an unpaved path around a reservoir (across the street from my office) being two.
A hiking trail filled with rocks that couldn't be defined, much less ridden would be the other extreme.The specific trail needs to be examined and evaluated.
At 08:38 PM 3/1/2007, Justin Kuo wrote:
Ron,
Last summer, I questioned a course that could may have been considered a trail as a good portion of it was off-road. At the time, my initial thought was the RRTC does not bother measuring and certifying trail courses or cross country courses. I discussed the problem with Pete Riegel and included the discussion below.
I went ahead and measured that course and am certain that the event will be held on the same course in 2007. I don't believe you'll see records on the course but it still deserved to be measured and
certified.
Maybe we can include a clear statement on the USATF web site on just what we measure?
Let me know your thoughts. Thank you. -- Justin
on 3/1/2007 7:36 PM Ronald Fitzpatrick wrote:
Aaron,
I have some bad news/good news:
It's not just unusual to certify a trail course. I recently had a similar query about a trail course spanning the Massachusetts and Vermont border and after checking with the RRTC, Pete Reigel responded trail couses cannot be certified, primarily because the route can not be reliably defined.
As to sanctioning; I can confirm that a course does not have to be certified to be sanctioned.
Hopefully, you can proceed without spinning wheels with certification.
Ron Fitzpatrick
Justin Kuo wrote:
Aaron,
Although unusual, the Road Running Technical Council has certified trail courses. To certify, the trail should be a well defined and clearly marked. The certification may be valid for up to ten years,
or until the course changes, so you should be able to locate the exact course next year.
Measurements are usually made with a calibrated bicycle. Although you can measure short distances with steel tape, you should be able to ride most of the course on a bicycle. A personal GPS device can
be used to help with mapping and documentation, but may not be used for the course measurement.
There are few individuals in the area that an help you measure and certify your course. I can give you a list when you are ready. You can, if desired, measure and certify the course yourself. The equipment, forms, instruction book and video is available for rent from the local USATF association office in Brookline,
Massachusetts. I believe the rental cost is still just $25. You
would measure your course following the procedures described by the
Road Running Technical Council, produce a clear map, and file an
application for course certification with your states course
certifier. (In Massachusetts, the filing fee is $25 for road
courses.) You may contact the USATF New England office at
617-566-7600, or at office@usatfne.org.
You can get details on the measurement process as well as examples
of local maps at:
http://usatfne.org/measurement/Additional information is available at:
http://www.usatf.org/events/courses/certification/I'm not sure on the wording on the USATF sanction form (event insurance), but I do not think there is a requirement that the course is certified. I have CC'd this message to Steve Vaitones at the USATF-New England New England Association office. He may have a better idea. I also CC'd your message to Ron Fitzpatrick. Ron is the regional certifier that covers RRTC certifications in the State of Maine.
I hope this gets you started. I know you'll have questions so don't hesitate to call me. My home phone is number 617-731-9889.
Thank you. -- Justin
on 3/1/2007 10:18 AM Aaron Swift wrote:
Hi Justin, I am the race director for a trail run we are developing here in Maine. My question is, is it possible to measure and certify a trail course(all off road)? If not, do you know of anyone that would insure a road race where the course is not certified? Thank you,
Aaron Swift, B.S., CSCS Personal Health Counselor Health and
Wellness Services (207)795-2473 swifta@cmhc.org
++++++
discussion from 2006 is below.
++++++
Dear Justin,
If they can make a map I will certify the course. Dirt paths, if relatively unchanging and credibly documented, are not quite as well-defined as curbed, paved roads, but I have always taken the view
that it is better to certify than not to. As far as I know there are no guidelines. I think this is best left
to the judgement of the certifier. If someone has already done the work it would be cruel to say "no." If they ask ahead, you might advise them to forget about it, but faced with work already done, what can you do? Be nice.
A one-day-only lime line on a golf course would stretch my mercy beyond the breaking point, but gravel pathways in city parks are within my willingness to certify.
Best regards, Pete
In a message dated 6/6/2006 11:35:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jkuo@usatfne.org writes:
Pete and Ray,
Do we have any guidelines on how much road is needed to qualify as a road course? I have a situation where the course is over 50% off pavement.
I appreciate your help. -- Justin
Justin,
I'd say at least half of the race distance would be off pavement, maybe slightly more than half. Does that automatically make it a cross country race rather than a road race? It's not *really* a cross country course, since much of the non-paved part is on footpaths around the perimeter of a park, and the rest is on a dirt/gravel fire road through the town forest. What qualifies as a road race versus a cross country race?
Thanks, Sam
-----Original Message----- From: Justin Kuo
[mailto:jkuo@usatfne.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: acton course measurement
Sam,
I don't know all of the area, but from the map and your description it looks doable. I'm curious... what percentage of the race distance will be on pavement? If a lot of the course is off pavement, then it's no longer a road race and becomes a cross country event (and does not need to be certified.)
Thank you. -- Justin
Samuel Niles Peretz wrote:
Justin,
Scratch that other course. This is what we're currently considering:
http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=29067.
This version spends more time in NARA Park and less in the parking lots of Nagog Park. It starts with an approximately 1 mile loop around NARA Park (on jogging paths, some paved, some dirt, some gravel), followed by an "out-and-back" that goes through the Town Forest (on a dirt/gravel path that's maybe 8-10 feet wide) to Nagog Park Drive in Nagog Park, then turns around at about the 2.1 mile mark and heads back the same way, along Nagog Park Drive and then through the Town Forest. It
then enters NARA Park at the upper parking lot, and finishes on a fairly straight, paved portion of the jogging path.
I ran this course today, just as it is shown on the map above, with my Timex Speed & Distance running watch with GPS, and it matched the Google measurements very closely.
Let me know your thoughts on this.
Thanks, Sam Niles-Peretz