Can we revoke a certification if payment isn't received in a timely manner?

The way I handle this is to tell them that it's payment up front in future. I recently had a slow-pay dragging his feet and I told them I'd process the course of theirs that I had pending as soon as I got paid for the past work. The check arrived in a few days. I don't know how the threat would have worked if they hadn't had the unfinished course in the pipeline.

My terms are payment is due upon receipt of the certificate, regardless of when the race is. After 30 days I goose them.

I don't see revoking a certificate as a good idea. But why not try it as a threat?

I go one step further than Pete. When I first take the race, I let them know that payment is due before they get the map and certification number.

As soon as I have the paperwork submitted, I send the invoice. It clearly states on the invoice that no map will be provided, and no cetification number will be provided until payment is received. That normally gets my payment pretty quickly.

In a few situations, bureaucracy will take longer to process the check. I work with them on that, and give them the map. I just don't ever supply the certificate number until I receive the check. Maps are needed for the police, so I don't want to totally hog-tie them.

I do think the threat of withdrawing the certification is a motivator. If runners don't see their course on the USATF site, it doesn't do the much good to advertise it is certified.

I have a contract and ask for the money up front before I mail the certificate to our VC. That is I don't give the race the paperwork.

It's possible since we Certifiers issue the Certificate's then if the money doesn't arrive don't send in the paper work to the VC's. I don't do this and feel it may be a bad thing if they have a Certificate.

I will bring this topic to light at the USATF Convention in Dec.

Once a certificate has been mailed to the VC, there should be no reason to cancel it except a flaw in its technical content, due to a mistake by the certifier.

Special privilege should be avoided. A certifier should not be able to cancel a certification, unless we wish to set up a system allowing ANY measurer to have the same ability to have a course canceled for nonpayment.

Any measurer's financial arrangements should have nothing to do with our certification process. Using it as a bill-collection agency demeans it.

Gentlemen (and Ladies),

How about a slow-pay list? Similar to what many businesses have in their Bad Check list, we could keep a table (I assume it can be set up in Groupee, or some other viable method) of slow-pay race directors. It would be buried in the Measurer Forum area, so it is not a table that the general public would normally see.

While most of us won't be exposed to someone else's slow-pays, some of the larger events may try to find a new measurer if they were slow to pay last time, or didn't pay at all. That way, we at least have a resource as a reference.

I thought of this because I have a long race that has not paid for 6 weeks, and has not responded to emails for two weeks. If the race wants a change next year, I wouldn't do it. But, he will likely find someone else, and they would be stuck, much like I am.

I don't see any other resource for us to help others avoid slow/no-pay races. While this would be my first no-pay, if we have a list, we could let the race know that if they don't pay (soon), they will be added to the "Caution" list in the measuring clan. Comments?

Not a bad idea, but I wonder if this is the right forum, because I wonder how many race directors operate outside the geographical reach of more than one group of measurers.

I'm thinking an occasional e-mail among the local measurement community might do the trick- as would a note to someone in the home community of the traveling race director in the event a measurer is approached by someone with whom they are not familiar.

I have a payment still due on a 10K measurement that was invoiced two months ago. I've mentioned it to at least one other measurer, and will request payment up front the next time.

Once you have measured a few courses it becomes apparent that some races are slower to pay than others. I only got stiffed once. Actually I did get paid but only after I informed the RD that I had petioned the Course Registrar to void the certification. I prefer not being paid as soon as the course is measured. Having to wait till the map is done keeps me motivated. I do send an invoice as soon as I finish the measurement with wording that the Measurement Certificate will be forwarded upon receipt of payment. Lately I have had to modify that to include the map for police to follow and the certification number as well. I made the mistake of sending a map with a cert number and had a difficult time collecting. Once the RD understood I was holding the certificate until paid, they came through. Face it holding the certification is sometimes the only way to motivate payment. The race course is already measured and marked so the Race Director HAS his course. Often that's all he really wants.
Once I have measured more than one course for someone and been paid promptly I still use the same language but send a copy of the cert along with the invoice.

Jay,

I have measured in Nevada, Idaho, S Dakota, Texas, and Kansas, in addition to Colorado. Maybe I am an exception, but that is outside my "local" area. I would imagine that other creative measurers may seek a course to measure when traveling a long distance, in order to properly write-off the mileage for the trip. That is why I think a centralized listing would be beneficial. I was referred to someone through another measurer who measured a course a couple years ago while on a trip, but couldn't make it out to measure the modified course. Maybe I am a tramp, but I measure-around, if I am asked. Maybe I am too easy.

Mike, I do much like you. The only time I get into trouble is when a race director didn't get their act together soon enough, and I am contacted at the last minute to measure. Then, I am forced to give them the map. I don't normally give them the cert number, but if they are a "qualifier", and the race they are qualifying for is soon, I need to give the cert number. I suppose I could at least require half of the fee before measuring, which would be somewhat of a safeguard, and also demonstrate a business-like approach, as opposed to a casual hobby.

My bet is that there are fewer than 25 races that have not paid for their certification more than 30 days after the measurement, at any one time. The one that prompted me to participate in this thread is paying incrementally, finally, after two months. That director would remain on the list, so other measurers don't commit to him without knowing he is slow to pay.

I would be willing to set up a listing on the RaceMeasure site, with the only access to the list through a direct address (not linked or displayed to a visitor to the rest of the site). The link would only be posted here, or in other measurer-specific hang-outs. Thoughts?

Mike, I have been creating a map of the course on MapMyRun.com, which can then be used for the police. I make sure the race director knows that the map is not precise, but will let the police know where traffic will be impacted.

I highly recommend MapMyRun.com, mostly due to the editability of the maps. I let the RD use my login, then I have access to the map, as do they. We can modify a concept until the RD is happy with the course. Makes planning a measurement pretty simple. I also make them acknowledge to me via email that the map posted on MMR is the course they want me to measure. Saves having to modify their concept when something doesn't work as they conceived.

In over 300 US courses measured I've been stiffed once. It was a local half marathom, and it was over a decade ago. The customer was a friend. After the work was done and the cert issued, and the bill sent, the race was cancelled, beyond his control.

I didn't have the heart to dun him for the bill, although I was sure he would have paid if I had.

I am not a lawyer and only play one on the web...
But I think if you don't get paid you have a case for money owed, after the fact, and after delivery.

BUT should you undertake to measure the course and then fail to do so, or to file the paperwork to obtain the certificate in a reasonably timely way, they would have a case against you for beach of contract and tortuous interference with their commercial enterprise. The damages from which could be substantial.

Unless it is a condition and provision of a written contract, I think it unwise to attempt to extort a more timely payment by withholding or delaying certification. If you do, you will probably be in breach of the express or implied contract and therefore unable to collect a cent, where as they could probably come back for damages, attorneys fees and costs.

You don't want to be first to breach, so deliver promptly, otherwise you are on legal quicksand.

At least that's my non-lawyer take on the matter. I am sure someone more expert in UCC and the law of casual contracts will be able to fill in the details. Your millage will vary, and the applicable law will depend on jurisdictional issues.

The only consistent condition is that the lawyers fees will out way any and all benefit you might at first perceive.

James,

I have it as part of my agreement that the client does not get the certificate until I receive payment.

In most cases, I will not withhold the certificate if I know up-front that the process will take a while. I don't explain to them that the course is certified, and will show on the USATF site in due course, so they usually endeavor to pay me promptly.

Haven't been stiffed, but have had a couple of very-slow-pays. They didn't get the cert number prior to their race, but the course was still certified, in case a record had been set, or if it was a qualifier. They just couldn't provide the qualifying information, which in itself became motivation for payment.