Mark yes I agree with you. It does get frustrating though when you start a thread and no one says anything. I have ask in another thread about the same thing and didn't get an answer. Maybe not true because I didn't ask the same question but it was close and Jim Gerweck said he does nothing special and Mark Neal said would do some comparisons which I will do also because I have a half marathon to measure on the trails with close to 10 miles will be one the trails. I would hate for it to be over 100 longer than it should be.